Invisible

[Kitaru]

Let's get this show on the road! There isn't a whole lot of documentation for invisible, so I figure this is a good place to start adding to the Strategy forum. :)

I'll start by throwing out some general tips that can help give some direction in learning this beast of a challenge:

Try to keep things more or less flat. A smooth stack has less surface area to visualize, which will minimize "read/write errors," if you will. :v
Focus most of your efforts on the visualization of the outline of the stack surface. As previously mentioned, it is difficult to keep intricate details about the stack surface in your head. The nice thing about just remembering the top is that it stays the same if you do, say, a tetris. Everything drops down 4 rows, but the top is the same.
Until you get really good about keeping your visualization of the stack accurate, you probably want to stack flat over mistakes. You're more likely to lose more ground probing around or attempting a risky maneuver in an attempt to fix things. If you're working on a credit roll, you're just trying to survive a short, fixed amount of time anyhow. You're better off doing stretching out the time you can survive on what rows you have left than attempt something that will, in all likelihood, reduce your prospects for survival. You can't see the hole, so your chances of finding it and fixing it without making additional holes that you may not be immediately aware of are quite low.
Be very aware of how you expect pieces to move across the stack and how they will change the stack when they lock. If there is some degree of ambiguity about the stack shape in your head, try to do a shift or rotation check if you can entertain a second possibility safely. For example, let's say you've DAS'd a piece left and you're not entirely sure whether the divot you caught it in is one or two cells wide. Well, you can safely tap right to confirm your image of the stack. If the piece moves right, you've avoided a potential mistake. If it stays in place, you've confirmed that the image of the stack you have in your head is correct.


That looks like a pretty good start for the basics. If you have any questions, I'll try my best to answer them. If you have any observations to add, I'd like to hear them. Let the discussion begin! :]

[Zircean]

I've noticed that sometimes I make placements without even thinking about them. Do you actually have to think when you are memorizing the stack or are you just chillin when you're playing invisible?

Also, how's learning Phantom 300 going?

[Kitaru]

I've noticed that sometimes I make placements without even thinking about them. Do you actually have to think when you are memorizing the stack or are you just chillin when you're playing invisible

Also, how's learning Phantom 300 going?
You know how once you've played enough Tetris you realize that you're thinking about things but the decisions seem to flow more naturally than they did when you first started? I think it is sort of like that. It adds another step of processing when choosing a placement. I've noticed that Special Ti invisible roll is a bit harder for me to keep under control than Master 1200 since the time it takes to process invisible specific things extend that placement decision process just enough to sometimes throw off my rhythm and cause misplacements, double locks, and other undesirable things. I had the same sort of feeling about TAP's roll a while ago, -- "Why does it feel faster?" -- but now I feel quite comfortable there.

tl;dr: Even if we were to stumble upon some brilliant advice for invisible,one would still have to develop their stacking sense under those conditions. It's the same with first learning the game, first learning to slide or twist, first learning mid Gs, first learning 20G... You're still going to have to get the practice in.

Phantom 300 is going alright. I feel a bit on edge with it sometimes, but I can manage as long as I stay very focused and precise. Unfortunately, I usually have some garbage rows built up by the time I get to 300, so I'm basically living on borrowed time. I got from 300 to ~460 on a practice run once, though.

[Amnesia]

An opposed detail to the "flat stack" behavior, but still usefull, if you are going for a slight pyramid stacking, in the first seconds, saying that you are going for a first tetris, and your first pieces lead you to a pyramid and safe stack, you can abuse of the STEP RESET, when you have 2 or 3 lines of difference between the center and the right wall, you can very slowly make fall the tetrimino in reloading the lock delay for each line.

It is not something I worked a lot, because I am mainly working on a flat technic, but I am sure you can save easily 5 or more seconds on the whole thing only in exploating the lock delay reloading.

You have to be accurate, the risk of beeing locked by the game when you don't desire it is pretty high, because you can't see the "stair"

[Kitaru]

Yeah, I would generally advise against abusing step reset. By the time you can remember the outline accurately enough to avoid any mistakes when abusing step reset, you are probably better off just playing normally. It seems like a tactic that would be more viable with move reset (for obvious reasons). I'd say only abuse step reset if you're getting into the last stretch of the credit roll and things are looking grim. Otherwise, I'd say that -- when playing merely for survival -- you just want to play at a metered rate. I'd suggest avoiding outright abuse of step reset multiple times with each piece as a substitute for being confident in one's understanding of the stack.

[K]

:sowsuser:

[Alexsweden]

Do anyone know any good program to practice this on - I would want to have an invisibel level with short falshes of sight every now and then like in tetrisfriends survival mode - but it takes too much time to go to level 20 just to practice invis there.

Great tips btw!

[Amnesia]

Texmaster2009 : mode special ti and you select the staff roll full invisible section

TGM2 on Mame : activate the cheat code to practice the invisible staff roll
(ask the cheat to someone..)

[muf]

Do anyone know any good program to practice this on
Nullpomino Phantom Mania (http://tetrisconcept.net/forum/showthread.html?t=1386).

[Rosti LFC]

I would want to have an invisibel level with short falshes of sight every now and then like in tetrisfriends survival mode


Plenty of games that have invisible modes, but I don't think any of them do this.

[Alexsweden]

Thanks for the answers - will try to get some understanding how the configs work on those - thanks!

[K]

:sowsuser:

[Kitaru]

:sowsuser:

What now?

[cyberguile]

for all TAP players, I suggest you play basic version of tgm2: M-roll requirements are easier to achieve than in TAP, sort of "if you can get sub 9min S9 on TAP easily, you will get M rank in tgm2 easily"
Did this for one week and got around 30 M ranks on tgm2 (when I only got 2 in TAP)

[K]

What now?

:sowsuser:

[cyberguile]

:'(
personnal best: 15 seconds of "stack under control" then 15 seconds of "what what what is happening on the screeeeeeeen !!!!"

[Amnesia]

My average is hugely improving (much more than 40sec now), I can very often build a tetris in the begining, and more rarely, I can perform one in the middle of the game. but my top is still struggling with still no completion, I just performed my last best at 57,30sec..
Am I especially bad at this exercice ?? Any new tips kitaru since your first post ?

[K]

ah ah ah....

9 out of 10 yesterday again....

sorry:v

[Amnesia]

-----> F Y :sowsuser:

[Amnesia]

:(

:'(


:confused:

:mad:

:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:


Soon...

[K]

Always
I wanna be with you
And make believe with you
And live in harmony harmony oh love :wub:

[COL]

It's becoming hot here...

[Kitaru]

I don't have any new advice in particular. 40s average is pretty good, and 57.3s best is also a great sign. I think the 40s average shows that you have a pretty good general idea, but need to improve the precision of your visualization a bit. The 57.3 game probably had really good stacking that lent itself well to remembering. The ~40s games probably have cases that are a bit harder for you to remember accurately, so you just need to keep practicing to figure out what goes wrong with the outline in your head.

[Amnesia]

Keep practicing, this is what I believe in. So I insist, 40min every evening..
Sometime I am pretty confident when I perform 3 time in a row 50+, or sometime, I got 40+ consistently on a whole session..

But yesterday, 3/4 game were around 35sec..:| I don't understand why I am so inconsistent sometime.

And worst, I absolutly need a little period or 5-6 attempt to be "ready" and "hot", and to become Gm, you need to be 100% ready for ONE try.

I still feel very very far to get Gm rank.

[an ass]

Always
I wanna be with you
And make believe with you
And live in harmony harmony oh love :wub:

YOU BECAME A STAR

[Budster]

Have you seen the new mino style on Tetris Friends? Full invisible.

Self-imposed challenge (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfImposedChallenge), anyone?

[Amnesia]

Since saturday, I have started some extremly boring exercices of memorisation.
No result after only 2 sessions of 30min each, ofcourse..

I can deal with the speed, I can understand pretty well the "flat" notion, but I have a fucking weak memory (fish).

I did not want to copy jago's method, I wanted to create and define my own exercice. Strongly inspired by jago's exercices.
Here my first proposition I am workink on, any opinion or advice will be ofcourse wellcome :

1 : I set a TAP MASTER in FULL invisibility but at the 0-100 speed, I have a "pause button" under my hand.

2 : I stack 3 tetrimino, flatly, then I pause.

3 : there are at this moment 2 way to memorise the stack :
-a : I memorize literally the sequence like : L, O , T
This is the bad thing to do, easier with 3 tetrimino, but become absolutly useless then.
-b : I memorize the line, with 3 pieces, which has not explode, it is easy I agree, then I draw the line on a paper, like 10 sec later.

4 : If I can do that soon 100% of the time (which is already the case actually), I will redo the same exercice with 4 tetrimino and explosion of 1 lines.

[K]

you could also train at work.. :v

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1307/imag0056j.jpg

[Amnesia]

Your screen reminds me a detail I wanted to ask : Is the grill necessary to train the memory better ? I find that I suffer a lot to exactely know where are the blank and filled cells.

[Rosti LFC]

Microsoft Excel: the thinking man's Nullpomino

[K]

So, if you're training with consistency..
What is your method ?:v

[Amnesia]

Practicing and forcing flat stacking, even if sometime it is more crappy than everything else, seems to focus more on a consistency developpement.
Simply because flat style prevents uncontrolable disruption, so it prevents very crap time (25-35 sec)

[K]

What is your method ?:v
Practicing and forcing flat stacking
can you be more specific about your method ?

[Amnesia]

I use little plastique tetriminos from the plastic board game. I have painted the pieces in black, and I do some quick puzzles I try to remember.

I don't understand your question, YOU have to be more specific about the word "method"

[K]

"training method"

[K]

Forcing pause between game or at least every 5min Give good result..or maybe it's the fear to be caught at work..:v

[Qlex]

Hmmm, shouldn't that happen for every mode you're not 100% used to?

I remember I did slight pauses for tgm3 20G, then I did the same for tgm 20G, after I realized binge playing was not so enlightening.

I mean, especially if you must have patterns in your mind you're not totally used to having, refreshing your play for every 5 minutes or so looks like quite a good idea. How tough is your invisible experience?

[K]

Hmmm, shouldn't that happen for every mode you're not 100% used to?

I remember I did slight pauses for tgm3 20G, then I did the same for tgm 20G, after I realized binge playing was not so enlightening.

I mean, especially if you must have patterns in your mind you're not totally used to having, refreshing your play for every 5 minutes or so looks like quite a good idea. How tough is your invisible experience?
i only talk about invisible. And being able to replay and watch right back what you JUST played is also fucking awesome.

[K]

<steadshot> so?
14<[]> what ?
<steadshot> oh, just wondered why you didn't respond anymore
14<[]> what ?
14<[]> respond to what ?
<steadshot> [19:22] <steadshot> but are you sure it's the right speed?
14<[]> oh
14<[]> well i haven't really tested it
14<[]> actually i the wiki take the data value directly from TAP rom
14<[]> it's not exactly what you "see" on screen
14<[]> people seems to not really care about it..
14<[]> anyway i put those input without testing it much
14<[]> it's "quite" accurate
14<[]> probably faster
14<[]> but still ok for what we need
14<[]> training
<steadshot> a little too fast for me
<steadshot> but well
14<[]> btw
14<[]> http://jagorochi.free.fr/winstarter.zip
14<[]> updated
<steadshot> oh ok
14<[]> you can now abort the game by pushing "up"
14<[]> there is no pause
14<[]> when the game end
14<[]> the game enter in a waiting state
14<[]> there is no displaying menu for choice
14<[]> but just remember
14<[]> A = restart game
14<[]> B = replay last game
14<[]> C = choose title screen
14<[]> (game mode)
14<[]> after Classic / TGM2 gameplay
14<[]> selection
14<[]> you can choose different fading speed
14<[]> there is a "mono" choice
14<[]> for Ancestor block
14<[]> it only make sense if you choose "classic" of course
14<[]> i'll put later different speed table
<steadshot> actually I was wrong
<steadshot> I didn't realize
<steadshot> classic = TGM3
<steadshot> and TAP = TAP
<steadshot> is it possible to define another key for the 'show stack
<steadshot> 'show stack'-feature*
14<[]> no
14<[]> i could but enter work good
14<[]> there are still display bug when you press enter during play or "ready go" animation or the sound doesn't acurate but i really don't care about this part cause
14<[]> this is not intented to be released or supported..
14<[]> i'm using it at work so : NO SOUND
<steadshot> well, my keyboard setup doesn't allow me to press enter
14<[]> too bad
14<[]> :)
<steadshot> actually nvm
14<[]> what key interest you ?
<steadshot> I can write a script to make any key enter
<steadshot> any key I want*
14<[]> yeah you could
<steadshot> ok, perfect
<steadshot> now I'm ready to practise :D
14<[]> actually backspace and Enter are not "standard" key for input config
14<[]> btw the "stealth mode" is really cheap
14<[]> but it's still an old macromedia director project i corrected a bit for my current use..
14<[]> there is no plan about support or future feature
14<[]> afk
i'm just fucking lazy to write something...

[K]

http://jagorochi.free.fr/stealth_trainer/
minor update

[K]

http://jagorochi.free.fr/stealth_trainer/
version 1.3
can someone tell me if the mono speed "feel acurate" in classic ?

at selection screen : CLASSIC > MONO

it start from level 1000..

[Amnesia]

I dont know if it is a too common case to be answered or adviced, but I am clearly at a state today where I can stack a lot of tetriminos, sometime enough to have 2 tetris ready in stockpile, with 0 hole, but after I put my I on the right and destroy lines, there is always a moment where everything diseaper in my mind, I simply lost all my "white line" I have in mind and disrupt everything. If I can stabilize the mess, I will get something not bad around 40sec (TI M ROLL), but most of the time it is over and I will never restack properly, just some random lines because I can just guess where the masses are.

Any advice adapted to my current state ?

This video is a perfect example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCDXtpeR6c8

There is really something missing for me, I miss a "mental tool" which could allow me to keep the control, but clearly, I dont feel even close at all to complete 1 M ROLL because of what I explained ahead...

[Rosti LFC]

I have the same issue actually. I can have almost perfect knowledge of the stack (or it feels like it) and then I'm suddenly completely lost the moment I clear lines and everything shifts down a bit.

[cyberguile]

same for me, when I clear my first tetris, it's over lol
so I try to do as much singles as possible, like in 500+ death mode but counterpart is that holes appear rather faster with this method T_T

[Amnesia]

No doubt that for TAP M ROLL it is completly crazy at our level to attempts tetrises. But for the TI M ROLL, I know that I have more chance to get 2 grades in starting with a tetris than trying to flatstack with singles and doubles, because of the lines/points :

1 : 0,1
2 : 0,2
3 : 0,3
4 : 1,0

Would have been more acceptable to have something like :

1 : 0,1
2 : 0,2
3 : 0,4
4 : 1,0

EDIT : It seems that Kevin use massively the S and Z to rebuild some reference points in his stack. I would like him to talk a bit about this.
I have heard jago, kan, kitaru, kevin, anyway, too many person always talking about "flat stacking", but for me sometime flat stacking is worse, I have some frustrating game where I have just NO line in flatstacking.

[Amnesia]

Today I tried to estimate the number of hours spent playing invisible.
A rapid calculation gave a number of 80-100 hours during these last 3 years.
What do you think about this number ? Does it mean too much ? or not enough ? :|

[K]

http://jagorochi.free.fr/inv.jpg

[Kitaru]

Oh my... :sowsuser:

[Amnesia]

J´étais déja au courant que tu étais completement fou. :p

Otherwise it is excellent what you have done here, how do you work then ? do you read it every day to learn the shapes by heart ?

[K]

Oh my... :sowsuser:
? i have this stuff since at least 2 years on my HD.. i made some research long time ago but never learned it.:v