General stick discussion

[Ray Ayanami]

ITT, we talk about playing Tetris with our sticks. That's not what she said.

So last night, I 4-wayed my FSTE and gave it another go. I seem to firm drop faster on it than on a keyboard, but some of the techniques I've adapted on a keyboard (such as initial firm drop followed by rotating and this hard-to-describe technique involving rotating whilst shifting sideways) don't translate so well to stick (yet).

I can reach level 245-ish in Death on a stick, vs. my record of 335-ish on a keyboard. Shirase feels slower on a stick for some reason, though I still have my share of double locks.

Special Ti / Grade Mania 3 is where my inexperience with a stick really shows. I can go fast enough to avoid REGRET!!s, but can't get a single COOL!! to save my life. My grade after a session of STi was 2.

I was contemplating keeping my stick in 4-way for the whole winter break, but with the upcoming arrival of my copy of Mushihime-sama Futari, it looks like that may not be the case, especially since all of my other 360 controllers blow for 8-way input.

Regardless, I have given this stick-using side of me a separate alias: TGM-R (as opposed to TGM-REI).

[Budster]

I still feel like I'm slower using a joystick. I've had a higher record with it on Death, though.

[muf]

Proud owner of a 360 FSTE; now to figure out a fast way to switch between 8- and 4-way without raping my knuckles over screws...
PROTIP: Get another FSTE.

[Ray Ayanami]

I'm too ghett0 ghetto to get another stick.

[Kitaru]

I think we need to design a different bottom for the stick that has a hinged door where the stick is so you can get in and switch the restrictor.

[colour_thief]

Too bad consumer sticks pretty much only cater to the fighter market...

But yeah some sort of hinge would be awesome. When I want to change the guide on my actual arcade machine, it takes only 10 seconds.

[Ray Ayanami]

Kitaru's homemade stick is made out of a winebox with a sliding bottom; maybe something like that?

And no, I'm not making my stick go commando. Even sticks need modesty.

[TWF]

When I first got my stick it felt like crap. It was far too sensitive and I'd drop into the wrong column all the damn time.

Now I much prefer playing stick, especially in master modes. My first section time in TAP master on stick is between 0:58 and 1:03, whereas I have a hard time breaking 1:04 on keyboard. The only mode I'm more confident in on keyboard is sudden Ti, probably because I play it so much at school.

As for switching between 4- and 8-way, HRAPs are the absolute worst, because of the multiple layers of unscrewing one has to do. I wonder if there's a way you could change the nuts that hold down the top plate for screws that you could undo from the top.

[orz]

i wish i could firm drop on a stick

[muf]

i wish i could firm drop on a stick
It takes practice and a worn in stick. Enough practice will wear in the stick properly, and after that it's smooth sailing.

[orz]

my stick is worn in i just have no motor skills when it comes to firm dropping this is probably because i equate non-20g play with witchcraft

[Ray Ayanami]

A couple nights ago:

[TAP Master]
GS6 - S1 - Lv. 700?

Starting to catch up.

[m:)]

After a year of nearly exclusive stick use it's really starting to feel natural for me. I've finally shed the regrets and can cool most the levels I clear consistently. That sanwa just feels good in my hand! I have never been able to play on a keyboard, it gives me sever pains :(. My special Ti is still only S3, and I usually top out around 500. Only in the last month have I gotten 0-500 in under 6:00 and now I'm at around 5:30. I feel 0-500 in 5:00 as my section records are all 54-59 (with 0-100 @ 1:04). I just need to stack better at 20G. If I play slow I can get into the 900's from time to time.

On topic, playing with a stick is just fun!

[colour_thief]

I have never been able to play on a keyboard, it gives me severe pains :(.

On topic, playing with a stick is just fun!

I agree with both of these comments. I played keyboard anyways though, even got some good records, but I can honestly say I would have quit due to RSI long ago if I never switched to stick.

[Free]

When i started playing with a stick it felt horrible - i misdropped about every second piece :) After several months im more consistent and accurate with it compared to keyboard, but still slow. I think my ST records in TAP for the first sections are about 1:15, no idea how people play sub-20g faster with an arcade stick.

[m:)]

I agree with both of these comments. I played keyboard anyways though, even got some good records, but I can honestly say I would have quit due to RSI long ago if I never switched to stick.

it's really bad for me, two games of 40 lines and my shoulder gets whacked out. It'll take a week to recover. a gamepad is bad, but not as much. the pain with a gamepad sneaks in slowly and lasts for a couple weeks after I stop. Any button masher will do it to me, and it's the rotate that does it in tetris.

I have to thank muf for suggesting the stick, it works! I've been pain free from tetris for a year now.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

I had severe debilitating RSI pains and couldn't do ANYTHING without feeling pain--typing, clicking, mousing, using a stick, playing NDS, you name it. Turned out to be a case of Tension Myositis Syndrome, and my wrists were essentially fine. I had to cure it using "mindgames".
May not be what others have, but f*ck, I almost lost my life and career due to this, and am now 100% better. Can't hurt to be well informed.

On topic, sub-20g play is still horrendous with a stick for me xD. but my sub-20g play isn't that great in the first place anyways. My 20g play is fine until 300 at which point I can still do double-taps and triple-rotates on keyboard but can't do them using stick. blahhhh.

[m:)]

my issues are from scoliosis, I'll always have back problems. it carries over to my shoulder. certain things can trigger my shoulder to flare up, it's a chain reaction to my other issues.

[K]

this (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?162026-The-official-Cthulhu-board-thread-Chimps-Available-Now!) is working fine.

[Budster]

I used a Ultimarc Mag-Stick Plus in the cabinet I built.
Easily switches from 4-way to 8-way and vice versa.

http://www.ultimarc.com/images/t-stik_plus.jpg

[m:)]

I used a Ultimarc Mag-Stick Plus in the cabinet I built.
Easily switches from 4-way to 8-way and vice versa.



the sanwa's are easily switchable as well, you should grab one up.

the issue is opening the box to rotate the plate.

[Ray Ayanami]

I went ahead and ordered a Seimitsu LS-32-01 for my FSTE, confident that I can replace the stick now.

[Zaphod77]

the trick of the ultimarc stuff is that you don't even need to open up to switch.

[Rosti LFC]

Yeah, but who needs to switch from 4-way to 8-way that regularly that they'd sacrifice their joystick being good quality? Just only screw enough screws in to keep the plates on, rather than all of them, and it's a lot easier to open up.

[Budster]

Well, it's not really a bad stick in the first place, easily being able to switch from 4 to 8-way is a bonus.

[Zaphod77]

ALso Ultimarc sells modded Sanwas (the J-Stick) that have rotatable restrictor plates, so in a cabinet you can just open the coin door and rotate.

[colour_thief]

ALso Ultimarc sells modded Sanwas (the J-Stick) that have rotatable restrictor plates, so in a cabinet you can just open the coin door and rotate.

How is that different than just opening the control panel? On my arcade machine I can switch the guide in less than a minute.

[muf]

ALso Ultimarc sells modded Sanwas (the J-Stick) that have rotatable restrictor plates, so in a cabinet you can just open the coin door and rotate.

Candy cabinets, contrary to woodies, have a very convenient (and screw-free) way of reaching the rear of the control panel; a simple lock and key and a hinge that tilts the whole panel upside down. And as colour_thief said, Sanwa sticks already have a rotatable restrictor. Advice from Rosti though, who frequently rotates his restrictor; get a spare restrictor plate and put it in 8-way (if your main one is in 4-way), and simply swap out the entire restrictor. If you rotate it too often it has a tendency to crack.

[Zaphod77]

Compare Ultimarcs "j-stick" to a standard sanwa. i think you'll find the design is different.

THe restrictor rotates without removing screws. You just reach your hand in and twist it.

[Kitaru]

I bought a "j-stick" a while back and it was a JLW, which requires unscrewing to switch. Switching a JLF, on the other hand, is just a matter of popping off the restrictor, clicking it into the new position, and snapping it back in.

[Edo]

Advice from Rosti though, who frequently rotates his restrictor; get a spare restrictor plate and put it in 8-way (if your main one is in 4-way), and simply swap out the entire restrictor. If you rotate it too often it has a tendency to crack.
Wow, that's really good advice! I wonder who came up with that originally. ;)



Also, just echoing what Kitaru said: the Ultimarc J-Stick isn't just based on Sanwa designs, it actually is a Sanwa; it's a standard JLW, unmodified in any way. And the stuff they say about not needing a tool to switch between 4 and 8-way is complete nonsense, there are 4 screws which need to be undone.


I had both a JLW and a JLF handy, and thought I'd carry out a quick test to see which was quicker to change.

The results:
The JLW took 60 seconds to loosen the 4 screws, rotate the restrictor and then tighten up again;
The JLF took 32 seconds to pop off the restrictor and swap for another one which was already switched to the other orientation.


Here are the other key differences between the JLW and JLF which aren't apparent from pictures:

Firstly, the most noticeable difference is the spring tension. The tension in a JLF is very light, making it well suited for games requiring rapid direction changes and complex input sequences, e.g. fighting games and the TGM series. Almost completely at the other extreme, the tension in the JLW is very high; it's probably the stiffest of all high quality japanese arcade sticks. Therefore, the JLW is not suitable for TGM, as you'll most likely end up with a sore wrist and hand after prolonged play.

Secondly, another difference is the diagonal engage when set to 4-way. You might wonder how important this is, so I'll give you a quote from slagcoin.com:
With interference, a big question is how does the game or joystick interface regard events of two simple directions being engaged at the same time? Some recognize the last-engaged direction, others the first; some remove recognition of previously or newly also-engaged directions, some do not; some remove all engagement recognitions when more than one are engaged at once.

The best example of a game where diagonals can be a problem is Pac-Man. The game recognizes the last of the four directions newly-engaged in choosing the direction of movement. Say you are turning right, but you accidentally clip the up switch after engaging right. Up will be the saved direction because it was last engaged. So you try to fix this by rotating the stick out of the up-right diagonal into only the right engagement. You would intuitively think this would fix the problem and make right the new direction. But right was engaged the entire time and it is not a new command. So up is still the recognized movement even though you are specifically holding right and only right.
Rest assured, diagonal engage is not a problem with TGM, but if you wish to use your stick with Pac-Man, you will most likely want to consider this factor.
With the JLF, it is still very possible to hit the diagonals. It's difficult for me to measure it at all accurately, but it feels roughly like 45° ±4° will engage the diagonal. However, because of the shape of the restrictor, the stick is naturally much more likely to slide towards the cardinal directions than the diagonals, so the ±4° is nowhere near as bad as it sounds. The JLW on the other hand has virtually no diagonal engage, and is very well suited for Pac-Man.

Thirdly, if durability is of concern to you, you may wish to take note of this. The JLF restrictor is actually very flimsy; as mentioned numerous times, rotating the restrictor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQLXRD-0GBg) too many times will cause the flexing tabs which retain the inner section to snap. Also, even if you use the advice given earlier and have one restrictor set permanently to 4-way, and another set permanently to 8-way, the restrictor may still snap after a while if your playstyle is particularly aggressive. On the other hand, the JLW restrictor is a single piece of plastic and will sustain much more of a beating before breaking. The most likely cause of failure is probably something like over-tightening the screws.



As for the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus, I've never used one of these myself, and can't comment on the quality. Budster, if you have experience with any other joysticks, please do share your opinions on how the Mag-Stick Plus compares, I'd be very interested to hear.

[Rosti LFC]

Also, even if you use the advice given earlier and have one restrictor set permanently to 4-way, and another set permanently to 8-way, the restrictor may still snap after a while if your playstyle is particularly aggressive.

I don't fully agree with this, or at least I think you make the JLF restrictor sound more fragile than it actually is. Most of it is pretty tough, thick plastic. The only real weakpoint on the restrictor is in the thin plastic arms that push the central piece in place, and these don't actually carry any real stress when you're using the stick, just when you're switching the restrictor around. One of my arms is snapped off, and one is badly cracked, and these are from repeatedly moving between 8 and 4 way, and it's only when I'm doing that that I notice a difference. During normal use I can't really tell that there's anything wrong with the plastic arms, they take that little load.

Sure, the JLF restrictor is inherently going to be weaker, but at the same time I doubt it'll break that often through normal use.

[KevinDDR]

I've never really had any problems with the Acme/Narrows JLW. Then again, I'm not really a top tier player and my playstyle has broken multiple restrictors so maybe I'm just violent enough for it to not matter.

[Zaphod77]

We modify the Sanwa part to allow 4-8 way switching without the use of tools. This can be backed-off if you prefer.

Perhaps the one who ordered it requested a stock stick?

[Ray Ayanami]

Okay, so I ordered a Seimitsu LS-32-02 and I try putting it in, using the same wiring harness. When I test out the stick, my PC isn't responding to it.

What a load of bullshit. I blew $30 on a Seimitsu for nothing.

[muf]

Are you sure you connected the 5-pin connector the right way around?

[Budster]

As for the Ultimarc Mag-Stik Plus, I've never used one of these myself, and can't comment on the quality. Budster, if you have experience with any other joysticks, please do share your opinions on how the Mag-Stick Plus compares, I'd be very interested to hear.

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with other joysticks, as this is the first build I've done.
I based my decision to use it on reviews from this (http://retroblast.arcadecontrols.com/hardware.html) site.

Edit: Fixed URL

[Edo]

I think you make the JLF restrictor sound more fragile than it actually is.
I guess you're right, I may have given people the wrong impression there. But I do honestly know several people who have broken them in the space of a year or two, myself included. Admittedly, I cracked mine playing Psyvariar 2, which does involve a lot of gratuitous stick waggling. If you don't yank your stick about too much, you're likely to get a lot more mileage out of it.

I've never really had any problems with the Acme/Narrows JLW.Yeah, I used a JLW too for several years, and also coped fine. But let's face it, not everyone here has big manly wrists like you and me, so I just thought I'd give people a fair warning. :D


We modify the Sanwa part to allow 4-8 way switching without the use of tools. This can be backed-off if you prefer.Perhaps the one who ordered it requested a stock stick?

Sorry, you're right, I'd seen that "modification" before and must have dismissed it as being totally not worth it, and subsequently completely forgot about it. Basically it consists of leaving each of the screws unfastened such that the head doesn't sit in the recess designed for locking the restrictor in place (i.e. the restrictor is free to rotate), then taking up as much of the slack as possible with washers. Having seen it in action, there is so much slop in the system that it really isn't something you should bother with, especially considering it only takes a minute to properly fasten/unfasten the screws with a screwdriver.

[m:)]

If you don't yank your stick about too much, you're likely to get a lot more mileage out of it.




ahh.. the key to getting more milage out of your stick is to not yank it around so much :awe:

[Ray Ayanami]

It works now.

[Kitaru]

I'm starting to be less of a spaz on stick! I had a nice game of TAP Master on stick yesterday -- S8, 998 @ 8:5x. As far as I could tell, I just needed one more tetris to get S9 and had all other requirements beside the time. B)

EDIT: S9 993 @ 8:5x today. Feels good. >:]

[The-Excel]

I have an LS-32-01. I tried playing it with NullpoMino and quickly discovered that the deflection is a killer.

[colour_thief]

I've used an LS-32 a lot, but I don't get what you mean by deflection. Could you elaborate?

[The-Excel]

Releasing a stick without holding it will cause it to bounce and hit the opposite direction for an instant, resulting in a misstep.

[colour_thief]

Interesting. That was a big problem for me when I moved from Seimitsu LS-32 to Sanwa JLF, and in general I've only heard of people having this problem with Sanwas. Granted I was using a regular LS-32, but I read somewhere that the joystick mechanism itself is identical with the -01 and only the wiring was changed.

[The-Excel]

I have a bootleg JLF that came with the stick I inserted my LS-32-01 into and had absolutely no problems with deflection with it. I only swapped it out because I play shmups more than I do fighting games.

[m:)]

Interesting. That was a big problem for me when I moved from Seimitsu LS-32 to Sanwa JLF, and in general I've only heard of people having this problem with Sanwas. Granted I was using a regular LS-32, but I read somewhere that the joystick mechanism itself is identical with the -01 and only the wiring was changed.

wow, I wonder if this is my problem when I use a fast DAS setting on tetris friends and blockbox? :hmm:

for some reason the piece always moves and extra space when I tap back away from the wall making fast DAS nearly impossible to play. I don't have this issue in texmaster, heboris or nullpomino.