is there any sense to play heboris with the keyboard?

[drkvnvc]

hi, im new here and sorry if this question is already discussed elsewhere. i got hooked up on heboris and i play with the keyboard because i dont have an arcade controller, and to get one it would be real hassle in this country..

so the question is am i missing much?

[Kitaru]

Keyboard and arcade stick both work wonderfully for TGM-style games. Most players would recommend stick if you can get one, but a keyboard can serve you just as well.

[XaeL]

keyboard is easier. stick for authenticity

[drkvnvc]

huh, relief, i have a chance to improve (: thanks a lot. its easier when i know that i dont suck because i dont have proper equipment but because im beginner and i need to learn a lot (((:

[XaeL]

well just so u know, i played basically only keyboard. then i changed to LockjawDS (which is DPad) and i got 55 seconds for 40L (i.e. pretty fast). i used an arcade stick once and i got 40 lines in 1 minute 10 on first try. So u can adapt as long as u learn one method of input well.

[Edo]

Hi drkvnvc, welcome to the forums!

Don't worry about asking things that may have already been discussed before; if a very brief search of the forums can't turn up the information you need, just dive right in and create a new thread. The people here are really lax about duplicate threads.

Regarding the difference between joysticks and keyboard: one thing that doesn't often get mentioned is that a player's stacking style adapts to suit their choice of input device.

If you're using a rotation system which is based on ARS, (if you're using Heboris C7, I think they're called "Heboris", "Ti-ARS" and "ACE-ARS2") you will notice that you have to press up to drop the piece, and then down to lock it. On a keyboard, most players will perform this up-down motion by quickly sliding a single finger across two keys. Joystick players have the advantage of being able to easily add extra inputs in between the up and down; complex moves like up-right-down or up-rotate-left-down are very easy on a joystick. These all fall into a category of moves called "Zangi-moves", which are described a little bit on our wiki: http://www.tetrisconcept.net/wiki/Zangi-move. Keyboard players find these moves difficult to perform reliably at high speed.

On the other hand, rapid directional tapping is much easier on a keyboard: a keyboard player can usually peform moves like left-left-left more rapidly and more reliably than a joystick player can. Therefore, when lock delay starts to get shorter in 20G, keyboard players can continue to rely on double-tap and triple-tap moves, whereas joystick players will often have to resort to alternative techniques instead.

If you've watched jin8's famous TGM3 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC544Z37qo) you might notice that for the first 300 levels or so, he uses a very high proportion of Zangi-moves, and almost completely avoids double-taps.


Out of curiosity, which country are you from? If it is difficult to find an arcade joystick for sale in your country, maybe you could consider making your own? Places like lizardlick.com sell American and Japanese arcade grade components, and they ship internationally. Here's a link to their joystick components page: http://www.lizardlick.com/pages/joysticks.shtml. You don't really need any specialist tools or skills to make your own joystick, you can even make one out of a shoebox: http://kotaku.com/5189361/kick-ass-with-shoebox-fight-sticks, or a tupperware lunchbox: http://dvice.com/archives/2009/03/tupperware_ps2.php

[drkvnvc]

Hi drkvnvc, welcome to the forums!

Don't worry about asking things that may have already been discussed before; if a very brief search of the forums can't turn up the information you need, just dive right in and create a new thread. The people here are really lax about duplicate threads.

Regarding the difference between joysticks and keyboard: one thing that doesn't often get mentioned is that a player's stacking style adapts to suit their choice of input device.

If you're using a rotation system which is based on ARS, (if you're using Heboris C7, I think they're called "Heboris", "Ti-ARS" and "ACE-ARS2") you will notice that you have to press up to drop the piece, and then down to lock it. On a keyboard, most players will perform this up-down motion by quickly sliding a single finger across two keys. Joystick players have the advantage of being able to easily add extra inputs in between the up and down; complex moves like up-right-down or up-rotate-left-down are very easy on a joystick. These all fall into a category of moves called "Zangi-moves", which are described a little bit on our wiki: http://www.tetrisconcept.net/wiki/Zangi-move. Keyboard players find these moves difficult to perform reliably at high speed.

On the other hand, rapid directional tapping is much easier on a keyboard: a keyboard player can usually peform moves like left-left-left more rapidly and more reliably than a joystick player can. Therefore, when lock delay starts to get shorter in 20G, keyboard players can continue to rely on double-tap and triple-tap moves, whereas joystick players will often have to resort to alternative techniques instead.

If you've watched jin8's famous TGM3 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC544Z37qo) you might notice that for the first 300 levels or so, he uses a very high proportion of Zangi-moves, and almost completely avoids double-taps.


Out of curiosity, which country are you from? If it is difficult to find an arcade joystick for sale in your country, maybe you could consider making your own? Places like lizardlick.com sell American and Japanese arcade grade components, and they ship internationally. Here's a link to their joystick components page: http://www.lizardlick.com/pages/joysticks.shtml. You don't really need any specialist tools or skills to make your own joystick, you can even make one out of a shoebox: http://kotaku.com/5189361/kick-ass-with-shoebox-fight-sticks, or a tupperware lunchbox: http://dvice.com/archives/2009/03/tupperware_ps2.php

thank you for the warm welcome. im from bosnia and herzegovina (republic of srpska) and in our capital you cant even buy xbox360 controller not to mention anything else (((: yeah recent war and stuff had some impact on life here.. but screw that (: anyway i could order some parts from http://www.lizardlick.com/ as youve suggested and make my custom stick. please if you have experience with that could you confirm that this is the all i need to make functional stick (except wires, screws and such, i can find those here thankfully):

- Toodles Cthulhu PC/PS3 Board
- JLW-TM-8 Ball Handle Joystick, 4 & 8-Way Adjustable + LB-35 Joystick Ball Top (:
- 4 x Sanwa OBSF-30 Pushbutton

and once again thanks for your help (:

[Amnesia]

The fastest HEBORIS player here is DIGITAL and he plays with a keyboard.
I am initially a Joystick player, there is now 7 months that I have been privated from joystick pleasure.
After 7 months on a keyboard I can feel the 3 TPS speed coming again.

I think the joystick has a advantage on the panel of technics and complexe moves, and the keyboard has an advantage for top speed, at 20G only.

[Edo]

could you confirm that this is the all i need to make functional stick (except wires, screws and such, i can find those here thankfully):

- Toodles Cthulhu PC/PS3 Board
- JLW-TM-8 Ball Handle Joystick, 4 & 8-Way Adjustable + LB-35 Joystick Ball Top (:
- 4 x Sanwa OBSF-30 Pushbutton
Yes, apart from an A/B USB cable which you should be able to pick up cheaply elsewhere, that should be all you need.

A few things you might like to consider:

The Sanwa JLW has a very high spring tension, and it may be uncomfortable for a lot of players. The Sanwa JLF has a much lighter tension and is definitely the most popular stick on these forums, and in other gaming communities in general. Having said that, I myself used a JLW for many years, as did KevinDDR, and we found them to be okay. There's a lot of useful information regarding the differences on this site: http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html.
I've not personally used a Cthulhu, so I cannot confirm 100% that it will work with all PC software including Heboris. I honestly see no reason why it shouldn't, but I'm just saying. I know that jago (he's now known as "K" on these forums) has a Cthulhu, so maybe he can provide confirmation of this.
4 buttons? I know that even TGM3 only uses 4 buttons, but what if you want to play other games, like Street Fighter? :D


Oh one last thing: depending on what style of games you play, it might not even be worth investing in a joystick, they are after all quite expensive. Heboris is well suited to joystick play (especially when using rotation systems based on ARS), but for games like Tetris Friends, the style of play is probably better suited to keyboard. Also, regardless of what games you intend to play, there is still no reason why you cannot achieve good results with a keyboard; as Amnesia mentioned, DIGITAL is living proof of this. Besides, I've seen players get good results on all sorts of games, with the most inappropriate of control devices: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwvCl4mgG7g (I know a lot of you will have seen that one before, but it's still funny, and it seemed so apt :))

[KevinDDR]

As Edo mentioned, I've played with the JLW for a long time (and still do on my TGM3 cabinet out of sheer laziness) but I would probably recommend a JLF. The microswitches also have a different feel and I think it's easier to do many motions with the JLF. The JLW honestly feels more like a Seimitsu stick to me.

[Kitaru]

I think the JLW spring also needs a bit of breaking in. My JLW finally feels somewhat like the ones on your cab, haha.

[rednefed]

I am a dedicated keyboard player. Just starting to break 3 tps in ACE-ARS2 (of course, I can do it in Ti-ARS, but practice before perfect). Don't worry. You can do well whichever input method you choose.

But to play TGM as it was intended, that means using a stick

[K]

But to play TGM as it was intended, that means using a stick

Playing TGM with a keyboard is like a legless cripple in a wheelchair not understanding he can't do it against valid athletes. :v

[Kitaru]

Dear K,

I'll have you know that I can go sub-8:45 in Master on stick. I don't think there is any reason to believe that keyboard players can't do just as well at stick.

Sincerely,
Kitaru

[Ai]

The more you play with a certain input method, the better you'll get at playing with it. It's as simple as that. The top Japanese and the elite Tetris The Grand Master players on this forum use a joystick when playing TGM games or their clones for the reasons mentioned above by edo. Also you need to keep in mind that these are arcade games which are originally played with stick, so it's only natural that some people will tell you that stick's the only way for the authentic arcade feeling.

I'm not really sure, but I don't think expert stick players would be able to get better performances with a keyboard if they switched long enough. I don't believe anyone of the top players only using stick would be willing to spend time getting accustomed to keyboard play to let us know. Though Amnesia has been struggling to get his stick level on keyboard for a while now. As it stands now, all records have been performed using a stick in the TGM games.

A lot of players, me included, have first played with keyboard and switched to stick later on when we got better at the games. Getting a stick right away isn't really necessary, but recommended if possible.

[colour_thief]

Dear K,

I'll have you know that I can go sub-8:45 in Master on stick. I don't think there is any reason to believe that keyboard players can't do just as well at stick.

Sincerely,
Kitaru

I think you misunderstand. He's just saying that they're not equivalent, which I think most sensible people would agree with. Certainly I do. He's not saying keyboard players are retarded, just that it's a physically different game.

[Edo]

I think you misunderstand. He's just saying that they're not equivalent, which I think most sensible people would agree with. Certainly I do. He's not saying keyboard players are retarded, just that it's a physically different game.
Wait, what?! You're saying keyboard players aren't actually retarded?!?!!!
Well I'll be... I learn something new every day.

Seriously though, I interpretred K's statement the same way as colour_thief; I personally would never say that keyboard/joystick players are better/worse, just that they're different, and it's not possible to compare them. Regardless of input device, you can still get enjoyment out of the game, and you can still achieve good results, but, it will just be different.

Here's an analogy that I feel is perfectly valid: playing Virtua Cop or Time Crisis on arcade hardware with a lightgun will be very different to playing it emulated and with a mouse. I'm sure some of you will argue that the difference between lightgun/mouse is much greater than the difference between joystick/keyboard, but personally I don't think that's the case. Although predominantly a stick player (all my records are set with stick), I actually play with keyboard a fair bit, and whilst I can still achieve similar results, I've noticed that my style is completely different. I have to use a different moveset, different strategies... it's not even remotely subtle, it's exactly as colour_thief said, it's a physically different game.

[Kitaru]

Personally I feel the Apples-Oranges Factor is lower, but I'll acknowledge that each lends itself to a bit of a different flavor.

I get the feeling that in Alternate Dimension Land where TGM originated on PC, we are having similar conversations except people are somewhat put off by the "bullshit stuff" you can pull off on stick. :p

[drkvnvc]

youve made me feel like a troll ((: ill stick with the keyboard for now. i still have a lot of theory to learn and i can tell that stick wont improve that process. subtle differences between stick and keyboard are still far away from me. but my long-term plan is to build one. thanks again

[Kitaru]

Haha, no worries. We get caught up in interesting conversation when it comes up, and this topic is definitely an interesting one to discuss! :)

Anyway, it sounds like you've decided on a good plan. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

[Ray Ayanami]

The two stoppers for me are:
- Having only one stick, an FSTE. Not just that, but since it's modded to have an Seimitsu LS-32-01, which I use for shmups, I have to screw on the 4-way restrictor along with the bottom plate.
- General lack of skill with sticks. Not only do I have techniques on a keyboard that are awkward on a stick, but on a stick I have trouble keeping up at lower lock delays; TGM3 Master + stick + all COOL!s up to the 500 section = I near-immediately crap out afterwards. Those who saw me play TGM3 at Sakura-Con this year can attest to this.

[KevinDDR]

I only play TGM with a stick because that is how it was designed to be played. For SRS/guideline games with no ARE I use a keyboard.

[Free]

- General lack of skill with sticks. Not only do I have techniques on a keyboard that are awkward on a stick, but on a stick I have trouble keeping up at lower lock delays; TGM3 Master + stick + all COOL!s up to the 500 section = I near-immediately crap out afterwards. Those who saw me play TGM3 at Sakura-Con this year can attest to this.

That was the same problem for me when i started to play with a Hori instead of a keyboard last summer. TGM might be the first game i used a joystick for if you dont count consoles like n64 or so, and it felt impossible. Its just so unfair when you cant tap directions multiple times any more, and zangi moves are harder to do as well if you have to drop the piece with up first because of that. for me at least, because im so fixed in pressing keys one by one insted of these circle-like moves. on the plus side, it seems to last longer than my keyboards did and multiple rotations at once are much easier to to ^_^

[K]

Dear K,

I'll have you know that I can go sub-8:45 in Master on stick. I don't think there is any reason to believe that keyboard players can't do just as well at stick.

Sincerely,
Kitaru
I'm not considering people using keaboard as retarded.
Especially speaking about SUB 20G (sonic drop), keyboard players can't do just as well as stick. :sneaky:

[nahucirujano]

Excuse me guys, I wanna ask you all something...
I`m thinking getting an Arcade Stick...
So...
Puzzle and Shoot`em Ups (Like DoDonPachi or Mushihimesama) are my favourite gender games...

So my question: Is the Arcade Stick structure important for our rendering in these two types of games???

I mean which stick is better for these games??? How should it be???
I mean its length, its "ball" should be little or big??? And the buttons??? Should be aligned???

Look at these pictures so you can tell which is better...

http://www.iplayplaystation.com/wp-content/uploads/virtua-stick-high-grade.jpg

http://www.firstsing.com/Products/Video%20Games%20Accessory/PS2/PS2%20Controllers/PSX2052/PSX2052%20Universal%20Arcade%20Stick-A2.gif

http://files.xboxic.com/general/solo-arcade-stick.jpg

http://www.gadgetvenue.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/xbox-360-arcade-joystick.jpg

I ask you this because I don`t wanna buy something that will be useless.

I wait for your answers...
Thank you all...
Regards...

Nahu

[Rosti LFC]

Well the first one is a VSHG, so it's definitely better. By a fucking mile, because the others look like absolutely shite sticks (though for that last two that might be because they're bat-tops and therefore usually a crappy US joystick).

It's not necessarily better because of the lay-out though. It's better because it has high-quality parts inside it, which is far more important than anything else.

[muf]

I would recommend getting any of these sticks:

SEGA Virtua Stick High Grade (VSHG)
http://www.iplayplaystation.com/wp-content/uploads/virtua-stick-high-grade.jpg

Hori Real Arcade PRO 3 Special Addition - Sanwa (HRAP-SA)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3220/3028700853_b08f8697c1.jpg

MadCatz FightStick Tournament Edition X360 (FSTE)
http://gamefocus.ca/UserFiles/Image/Mad%20Catz/Xbox-360-SFIV-FightSick.jpg

Or, building your own joystick using these parts:
- Sanwa JLF-TP-8Y (or JLF-TP-8YT)
- Sanwa OBSF-30
- Any USB gamepad PCB
And make sure to leave approximately 10mm of space between the base of the JLF and the top of the control panel surface (the JLF is designed to be mounted on a retention bracket and has a longer shaft because of this).

And in all cases, whether buying a prefab joystick or DIY building one, make sure to set the restrictor to 4-way (diamond shaped).
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2249/image3395vc4.jpg

[K]

Just avoid at any cost shity part or manufacturer.

Sanwa or Seimitsu are recommended.
the flavor is up to you but buying a reliable arcade stick if for life. :wub:

just avoid this "thing" :
http://www.firstsing.com/Products/Video%20Games%20Accessory/PS2/PS2%20Controllers/PSX2052/PSX2052%20Universal%20Arcade%20Stick-A2.gif

[Rosti LFC]

And in all cases, whether buying a prefab joystick or DIY building one, make sure to set the restrictor to 4-way (diamond shaped).
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2249/image3395vc4.jpg
Except you'll want it in 8-way when playing shmups, so probably best to get a second restrictor which is set to 8-way and just swap them in and out.

[Zaphod77]

If you play primarily in US arcades, most of them will have the bat top, and if you wish to practice for that, you should get one of the latter two.

HOWEVER, more and more arcades these days, even in the US, are switching to the candy cabinets, which have the japanese sticks in them. SO learning on those is good.

And playing in actually arcades these days is pretty rare, so the higher quality japanese sticks are a good bet.

THe most important things are stick quality, and then layout after that. A more countured layout, like the top ones, will do much better than the standard sf2 two flat rows one.

[KevinDDR]

Actually, only one TGM machine outside of Japan uses bat top sticks. Seriously, just get something that uses a JLF and Sanwa buttons and you will be good to go.

[muf]

If you play primarily in US arcades, most of them will have the bat top, and if you wish to practice for that, you should get one of the latter two.

HOWEVER, more and more arcades these days, even in the US, are switching to the candy cabinets, which have the japanese sticks in them. SO learning on those is good.

Bat top and Japanese sticks aren't mutually exclusive terms. You can buy loose bat tops and put them on a JLF or LS-32, if you absolutely must insist on ruining your own gameplay experience. Also, what Kevin said. Japanese games generally get ball top joysticks, even in the US. Personally, if I were to encounter any Tetris game with a bat top I would complain to the arcade operator. Or maybe bring one of my spare balltops and screw it on myself cause I have like at least four green/pink surplus.

[MisterBenn]

I was buying six months ago and was this close to getting a HRAP-SA. I was put off with a cost of GBP 150 before posting and soon discovered that a regular HRAP3 + separate sanwa buttons produced the same result for just over half the cost. And putting them in was simple, even I could do it.

[Ray Ayanami]

It's not just the top, it's also the well.

I could be rocking a Sanwa, but if its well is round-shaped, this will give me problems on shmups. On TGM, I'm just gonna rage-not-insert-coins.