Tetris Cup challenge [Archive]

caffeine

10-21-2007, 05:12 AM

They made a website (http://www.tetriscup.com/index.html). Is it too late to transfer to UH? Meh, this just makes me depressed. I bet there's a good Tetris "scene (http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MH&s_site=miami&p_multi=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_d03CD9B0D38)" going on over there right now.

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BTW mister Blue Planet Software Quality Assurance number 1, you're lagging three seconds behind me. Shape up!

DIGITAL

10-21-2007, 05:22 AM

Darn, it's a TDS tournament. If only we could get in there and sweep up the prizes for every event. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

colour_thief

10-21-2007, 06:39 AM

caffeine

10-21-2007, 07:27 AM

shut up! it's a sponsored tetris event. that's a good thing.

lee n

10-21-2007, 07:48 AM

it's a sponsored tetris event. that's a good thing.

And yet, they're being awfully restrictive about it.. that's a bad thing.

kiwibonga

10-21-2007, 08:06 AM

Meh, a volcano will erupt and they'll come have a real tournament at the nintendo center in new york, no biggie :p

Needle

10-21-2007, 08:30 AM

Is it really a tournament using DS? With the official companies involved? Why? Doesn't that game use the now aging 2005 version of the guidelines? Why would an tournament with the involvement of the body that defines the guidelines themselves use such an outdated old version? Didn't even the previous tournament in Hawaii use Evo, a game with the 2006 rules?

10-21-2007, 11:56 AM

jujube

10-21-2007, 07:53 PM

Rosti LFC

10-21-2007, 10:51 PM

bhaa ! let people have some fun in this part of the world ! what are you expecting by a global and competitive tournament ? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

"TGM-winnerName" ? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif
but the would-be winner of that tournament already goes by TGM-HOLiC http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Technically it was Pluto. Even if he did cheat.

I still wish they'd hold some sort of tournament like this even within a thousand miles of where I live. Even if I didn't win or make any money from prizes I still reckon it'd be a fantastic experience.

tepples

10-21-2007, 11:21 PM

I'm sorry but the Tetris Cup is a pathetic joke. Not only is it in Hawaii, but it's restricted to University of Hawaii students. Something with a name like Tetris Cup deserves better than that. As it stands, it's little more than a promotional event. There's nothing wrong with those, of course, but for chrissake they're calling it the "Tetris League". THE.

All leagues have to start somewhere. The NFL wasn't all that "national" in its first season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_football#Early_years_of_the_NF L_.281920.E2.80.931945.29) either. And given the origin of the name Tetris ("tetromino tennis"), I can't resist making another lawn tennis analogy: Consider that the United States Tennis Association started in New York City (http://www.usta.com/communitytennis/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=95424&icategoryid=437).

jujube

10-22-2007, 01:48 AM

All leagues have to start somewhere. The NFL wasn't all that "national" in its first season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_football#Early_years_of_the_NF L_.281920.E2.80.931945.29) either.

the Dayton Triangles? were they serious? what a bunch of squares.

edit: yeah that joke was pretty lame. but at least i don't call myself a triangle.

edit: hmm Akron won the championship in 1920 and Canton won in 1922 and 1923 >_> nope, not much national competition there.

colour_thief

10-22-2007, 03:16 AM

I'm sorry but the Tetris Cup is a pathetic joke. Not only is it in Hawaii, but it's restricted to University of Hawaii students. Something with a name like Tetris Cup deserves better than that. As it stands, it's little more than a promotional event. There's nothing wrong with those, of course, but for chrissake they're calling it the "Tetris League". THE.
All leagues have to start somewhere. The NFL wasn't all that "national" in its first season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_football#Early_years_of_the_NF L_.281920.E2.80.931945.29) either. And given the origin of the name Tetris ("tetromino tennis"), I can't resist making another lawn tennis analogy: Consider that the United States Tennis Association started in New York City (http://www.usta.com/communitytennis/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=95424&icategoryid=437).

Let me elaborate. There is no reason that the best tetris players in Hawaii would be students of the university of Hawaii. The fact that entrance is based on something so random instead of merit is what degrades the tournament into a mere promotional event.

tepples

10-22-2007, 03:25 AM

There is no reason that the best tetris players in Hawaii would be students of the university of Hawaii.

But is it different from the NFL draft? NFL scouts tend to ignore football players who live in the area of Lafayette and West Lafayette, Indiana, but do not attend Purdue University.

I'm guessing that the Tetris keiretsu is more experienced in developing game rules and licensing a brand than in managing a professional sport league. Give Mr. Rogers time.

colour_thief

10-22-2007, 03:53 AM

"Tend to ignore" is meaningless. If someone with skill presents themselves, the scouts would become interested. With this tetris league it doesn't matter how much skill you have if you're not a student at UH.

caffeine

10-22-2007, 04:31 AM

i'm thinking it was probably some guys from UH who started putting the pieces together. i dunno, but it seems like it could've snowballed from "tetris meet at bill's dorm room on fridays."

Chaos

11-09-2007, 09:00 PM

Well the tournament so far is actually pretty interesting. I'm a UH student who actually posted a thread asking about this tourney a while ago. It's actually drawn out a fairly decent crowd because I don't think I can smash all of the people in the top 16 so far. Granted I'm no god, but I can manage about an average 7400 on wifi. What's surprising is that because it's only restricted to just UH students that the amount of entrants is actually this decent. I also got to session with some of the staff, and a choice few are actually pretty good. One of them can match me, which is surprising because I can't find decent local players (the ones that kick my ass are only on wifi), and he says the guy in charge is t3h ub3r godly. So that being said I wanted to play him, but he said that he'd play me on the day of the finals on the huge-ass screen TV in front of everyone. That actually scares me, cuz I've never seen him play yet, so if I get totally raped then it'll be funny.

But this being restricted to just UH students isn't too bad as it includes all institutes within the UH system, meaning it includes about 4 other community colleges along with the university of hawaii at manoa.

With blind assumption in place, I will have to admit that if at all, my friend and I are probably the near-top as far as "best in hawaii". We've been looking for quite a while for actual competition, but for the past year or so, we've found nobody. I'm sure you guys here would own us entirely, but that aside, because the UH system stretches so far, it's almost guarantee that it'll grab a lot of the tetris community. Having about 5 campuses in the UH system, and this only being a small little island, it's highly probable that we've gathered the majority of the actual competition on the island. Unless the best tetris players lives under a rock as far as technology goes, then maybe you can say that being a part of UH would be a bad way to gather the top players...

The qualifications are going by line clear score at speed 1 and height 0. Time bonus is awarded starting at less than 40 seconds and 12,000 points and goes down by 1000 points for every respective interval of 10 seconds slower than 40 seconds.

The finals will be multiplayer verses, single elimination, best of 3. I have no idea how team finals is like so I can't say anything about it now.

caffeine

11-09-2007, 09:29 PM

awesome. tonight i'm going to go home and see what kind of line clear score i can get under those restrictions. thanks for the report, and keep us posted with the results and everything.

Pineapple

11-09-2007, 11:53 PM

awesome. tonight i'm going to go home and see what kind of line clear score i can get under those restrictions. thanks for the report, and keep us posted with the results and everything.

Your fastest recorded playing speed to date is probably your TDS Marathon. Your first 7 tetrises take 45 seconds to happen. Given that you are possibly faster now than you were when you made that, and that "0"G is faster than 20G, you could probably get 7 tetrises within 40 seconds. This would give you a score of 20000 (800 for first tetris, 1200 each for the next 6 tetrises, and the full 12000 time bonus). Given that you will hard drop roughly 75 pieces to do this, and that the average hard drop will give you 20 points (this is a conservative estimate), This would put the optimal score for doing all tetrises in the region of 21-22k. There are almost certainly better scoring strategies, but I don't think thast they can get more points than would be lost because of taking too long...

Chaos: I suspect that 20k could well be enough to qualify. But there is a chance that I could be wrong. Anyway, good luck...

caffeine

11-09-2007, 11:55 PM

so you think tetrises would be better than st stacking?

Pineapple

11-10-2007, 12:17 AM

so you think tetrises would be better than st stacking?

I just ran the numbers. The optimal strategy is probably TSD x5, Tetris, TSD x5, Tetris.That gives you 12+18+18+18+18+12+18+18+18+18+18+12. That's 19800. You'll lose 100 points (and roughly 4 seconds) because of having to soft drop 9 pieces, and another 3 seconds for the extra 5 line clear actions.

That all puts you to around 21000. But then there's the time bonus. Which means that you'd need to do it within about 2 minutes 30 to be at around the same score, or closer to 2 minutes if you want to have a better score. And you need to be able to be both consistent and fast...

With enough time to practice, ST stacking is probably better, But in the short term, it's close enough for both to be potentially valid strategies.

I would say that the organisers have got the time bonus pretty much on the sweet spot. Whether that was by luck or judgement though, we will probably never know...

Rosti LFC

11-10-2007, 12:18 AM

I'd say that with time restraints Tetrises would be better. For starters, it's easier to get back on track if you make a mistake.

Chaos

11-10-2007, 12:31 AM

Well at the given moment, I hold the top spot with 21,651. The bottom score at 16th place is 16,872.

My theory score without T-spinning is 22,000, a 10,000 game with the 12,000 time bonus. But since I didn't work well with pressure and the fact that I got only one try (per day), I used two TSD to make my top score possible a 12,000 game and I did it within 65 seconds (a 9000 time bonus). but that was just to be safe. When I'm playing straight tetris', I can pull a mid 21,000 (maybe 21,6xx) which is a 10,000 game with an 11,000 time bonus. I can hit the 12,000 bonus, but that's if I'm "in the zone" so to speak. My friend can do 37 seconds easy though. He's good, but then again, both of us are more prone to misplacing blocks when we're playing that fast.

As far as my plan for this tourney, I try to play the guys that place high to some fun matches to see where I stand compared to them. Just so I can get a general idea of how easy or hard this will be. So far, I think that the one staffer I played is still the best competition I've had (aside from my friend). The prelims are going to start in an hour over here (4th prelim day) so I'll post an update soon. Hopefully I can get my new theory score of 23,000.

jujube

11-10-2007, 03:16 AM

The finals will be multiplayer verses, single elimination, best of 3.

what? best of 3 games? you only need to win (or lose) 2?

mat

11-10-2007, 05:11 AM

games go way way too fast to only get 2 losses....

z-flo

11-10-2007, 06:02 AM

Rosti LFC

11-10-2007, 06:08 AM

Are they running any handicap settings?

Generally the consensus is that on Tetris DS multiplayer, playing with Handicap 1 sucks, because the garbage randomiser is awful, and it all usually lines up completely, meaning the game basically turns into tennis with each player clearing the garbage backwards and forwards.

z-flo

11-10-2007, 06:15 AM

To my immediate knowledge they won't be using any sort of handicap, probably for the same reasons the Line Clear qualifiers aren't using Speed-20, Level-5, etc.

So wait, this I actually didn't know - the Handicap on multiplayer determines the garbage setup?

jujube

11-10-2007, 06:37 AM

This is Chaos' friend, currently #2 in the tournament with 20,012.

The main problem with university tournaments (poker, especially) is that they're heavily reliant on the schedules and time limitations enforced by the school. If I recall, they want to finish both the individual and team tournaments by 8 or 9 pm at the latest (Chaos, correct me if I'm wrong), so given what other sideshow events they may have planned, single-elim best of 3 is a little quick, but efficient.

That, and this seems to be their first shot at a "major" Tetris tournament here, so they could just be testing the waters with this format.
sounds like they should extend the tournament by a day or two to allow for longer matches. i would want to play at least first to ten wins wins.

So wait, this I actually didn't know - the Handicap on multiplayer determines the garbage setup?

the handicap determines the garbage hole randomness and the fall speed of the pieces. hc5 has very random garbage and the pieces fall instantly, while hc1 is like Rosti said. the hc in wifi worldwide seems to be somewhere between 2 and 3, but i don't think we know for sure.

z-flo

11-10-2007, 07:19 AM

sounds like they should extend the tournament by a day or two to allow for longer matches. i would want to play at least first to ten wins wins.
First to ten sounds good. In training, Chaos and I usually play first to 21, but 15 of those (16-player single elim) would take 2.5 hours at the LEAST, so...

the handicap determines the garbage hole randomness and the fall speed of the pieces. hc5 has very random garbage and the pieces fall instantly, while hc1 is like Rosti said. the hc in wifi worldwide seems to be somewhere between 2 and 3, but i don't think we know for sure.

Is the handicap determined at all by the ranking differences?

DIGITAL

11-10-2007, 07:25 AM

Is the handicap determined at all by the ranking differences?

I'm not positive but many have said that the higher your rank is, the higher your garbage handicap becomes. So an 8,000 player would more frequently have messier garbage compared to a player at 6,000.

tepples

11-10-2007, 08:04 AM

Generally the consensus is that on Tetris DS multiplayer, playing with Handicap 1 sucks, because the garbage randomiser is awful, and it all usually lines up completely, meaning the game basically turns into tennis
Of course it's te??is. Why else would Mr. Pajitnov have called it "Tetris" if it wasn't tennis? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
The game name "Tetris" was purely Alexey's idea. The word is a combination of "tetramino" and "tennis". I thought it sounded a bit strange in Russian, but Pajitnov insisted on giving the game this name.

Fun fact: Waluigi's tennis racket has a tetromino on it (http://thor.mirtna.org/oddities/lookalikes/pics/waluigi-01.jpg).

jujube

11-10-2007, 08:44 AM

Fun fact: Waluigi's tennis racket has a tetromino on it (http://thor.mirtna.org/oddities/lookalikes/pics/waluigi-01.jpg).

http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif again with the J-L mixmatch. the tetromino on his racket could be J or L depending on which side of it is showing, but that looks like a J on his hat. i guess the pic might have been reversed at some time.

funny though, Digital just pointed out that while "W" (Wario) is a flipped "M" (Mario), maybe the L is flipped to be an "evil" J.

Needle

11-10-2007, 10:59 AM

It's a Japanese pun actually. There's a Japanese word called "Warui" which would translate to "bad" or "evil". Therefore, Wario = Warui Mario, and Waluigi = Warui Luigi.

massi4h

11-10-2007, 04:31 PM

This sounds stink, but there's nothing in the rules against holding Down and mashing A until you get whatever super high score you can. Stuff the time.

tepples

11-10-2007, 05:42 PM

This sounds stink, but there's nothing in the rules against holding Down and mashing A until you get whatever super high score you can. Stuff the time.

Unless the "time bonus" can be negative if the player takes longer than 2:40.

Rosti LFC

11-10-2007, 08:54 PM

This sounds stink, but there's nothing in the rules against holding Down and mashing A until you get whatever super high score you can. Stuff the time.

I say if someone is willing to press a button repeatedly for THAT long then they can qualify.

Even looking optimistically, it'll take you nearly three hours to get 20,000 points using that method.

DIGITAL

11-11-2007, 12:54 AM

Heh, I found some competitors here.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmes ... c=39436403 (http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=930648&topic=39436403)

Chaos

11-11-2007, 12:12 PM

Well so far, a few of the people that I know of (or more like people z-flo knows of) are placing higher. Even though we expect as much, it's good to see that they're getting their respective spots. So far my fourth attempt went in flames with a sad score of about 19,6xx. Unless somebody takes my score down, I doubt I'll play line clear anymore. I think I'll be on the level 5 CPU's in verses. Anyone want to play over wifi and maybe help me train? Haha.

z-flo

11-17-2007, 09:31 AM

The longest match I ever played in my life was at this tournament. The semifinals, even, against Chaos. Someone should have it on YouTube soon, but holy horseshoes... I want to go to sleep.

tepples

11-17-2007, 09:36 AM

Did the fall speed surpass 1G (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Glossary#G) once both players had been playing long enough?

Chaos

11-17-2007, 11:13 AM

we couldn't really tell as the whole match (or most of it) was hard drops. I'd say that we went on for a good 3 to 4 minutes though. Best game of the year for me. Sadly, I lost, my friend z-flo here taking first. I got third only because we were in the same bracket, so best I could do was third. But I will say that I would've beaten the second place person anyways. The competition as far as battling was decent, but nothing spectacular. That staff member that I said was really good, was really good. We got to battle after the tourney and he beat me 3 games to 1. He was really good, I mean that honestly. It was an awesome tourney. Hopefully I can get my friend to post up footage of our battle so maybe we can get feedback from the pros here. Maybe see if we're any good to you guys.

Pineapple

11-17-2007, 11:16 AM

Did the fall speed surpass 1G (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Glossary#G) once both players had been playing long enough?

It goes to 20G (or close enough to be 20G) after about a mninute and a half when starting from HC5, so I imagine it does...

jujube

11-17-2007, 11:32 AM

Maybe see if we're any good to you guys.

i'm sure you guys are pretty good if you made it so far in the tournament. there must have been some decent players to get through before you made the semifinals. and congrats z-flo for coming first http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif

anyway if you can learn to do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aH9kKMr64A) you'd probably be better than anyone here.

Chaos

11-17-2007, 11:32 AM

It didn't get that fast. The tourney was played on handicap 1.

Maybe see if we're any good to you guys.
i'm sure you guys are pretty good if you made it so far in the tournament. there must have been some decent players to get through before you made the semifinals.

anyway if you can learn to do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aH9kKMr64A) you'd probably be better than anyone here.

I've seen that vid and that is so godly. But I doubt we were playing that fast. I'd say maybe a step (maybe two) below that speed. I thought we were playing fast. z-flo's speed in verses is hard to keep up with though. I have a hard time keeping up with his speed, I make up for it with harder attacks.

I guess if we try judging by speed, z-flo can finish 25 lines (with all tetrises) in 38 seconds. My personal best is 39 seconds. And we don't just clear the last line, we tetris the last one. So 7 tetrises in less than 40 seconds would be a slight indicator of how we play as far as speed goes.

gko

11-17-2007, 12:30 PM

I got third only because we were in the same bracket, so best I could do was third. But I will say that I would've beaten the second place person anyways.

Yeah, but that girl who placed 2nd is far easier on the eyes than either of you. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Nice job, you two. The crowd roars pretty much indicated that whenever someone came back from the brink, (which happened more than a few times.) You guys forgot to mention also taking first in the the team competition.

Chaos

11-17-2007, 03:07 PM

Yeah, but that girl who placed 2nd is far easier on the eyes than either of you. :lol:

Nice job, you two. The crowd roars pretty much indicated that whenever someone came back from the brink, (which happened more than a few times.) You guys forgot to mention also taking first in the the team competition.lol thanks?....hahah..

Well anyway, a friend of mine got it uploaded already, so enjoy my match of the year. Note: I'm the one on camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOzmyqL9XFI

Here's my match that won third place...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_VA43KoDa4

and for the record, Luigi is not my IGN, it's just the name of the DS that they needed to project the game onto the big screens.

Rosti LFC

11-17-2007, 07:14 PM

Decent video.

I'm glad that the speed was there at least. I would have expected with such a localised tournament that the best player would only be around a 6750 rating online, maybe lower, so I'm pleased the skill was high at least.

T-spins seemed thin on the ground, and I reckon most of the better players here would have won pretty easily, but I'd have been extremely surprised if that wasn't the case, given the nature of this place.

Using Handicap 1 removed a great amount of the gameplay though, and meant that speed as ranked far above stacking and line-clearing technique, especially seeing as the players are quite good. It should have been at least 2.

Kudos to the commentator for doing a good job though. Tetris isn't the easiest game to commentate on.

Pineapple

11-17-2007, 07:40 PM

I guess if we try judging by speed, z-flo can finish 25 lines (with all tetrises) in 38 seconds. My personal best is 39 seconds. And we don't just clear the last line, we tetris the last one. So 7 tetrises in less than 40 seconds would be a slight indicator of how we play as far as speed goes.

That's some pretty tasty speed. Glad to see you got under 40 seconds. I was fairly sure it was possible when I did my calculations.

Chaos

11-17-2007, 09:00 PM

As far as speed goes, only z-flo and myself showed speeds of the sort. Most of the other finalists were a noticeable step below the speeds shown in our match. No one there was very exceptional with executing t-spins fast enough for battle situations, so I suppose that's what made it a little easier for us to get that far. I myself am not all too great at t-spinning, but I can set up for singles and doubles during battle at least, so that helps me I guess. z-flo on the other hand rarely pulls out t-spinning at all. I'm sure that with the speed he normally plays at, makes up for it (as far as battling the people here).

I'm sure the better players of this forum would smash us, but I hope that I can get myself to faster levels of playing speed to compensate for my lack of t-spin usage and efficiency of blocks. To be as fast as uwadumi would be pretty awesome.

tepples

11-17-2007, 09:05 PM

I guess if we try judging by speed, z-flo can finish 25 lines (with all tetrises) in 38 seconds. My personal best is 39 seconds. And we don't just clear the last line, we tetris the last one. So 7 tetrises in less than 40 seconds would be a slight indicator of how we play as far as speed goes.

Subtracting line clear delay, that's about 35 seconds of active time, or about 120 TPAM.

DIGITAL

11-17-2007, 09:41 PM

I'm sure the better players of this forum would smash us, but I hope that I can get myself to faster levels of playing speed to compensate for my lack of t-spin usage and efficiency of blocks. To be as fast as uwadumi would be pretty awesome.

uwadumi is damn fast that's for sure. But no matter how fast you are, you're still limited by what the game allows you to do. Speed can only get you so far until you hit a barrier. That's when you need to improve other skills to up your game. Compensation with speed will only help you against players who are proficient in other areas but are slow. What'll happen when you run into a person that has both speed and mastery of other areas?

That said, there are a lot of techniques you use which you may not have even distinguished as techniques. Non-overstacking construction, skimming (z-flo was especially proficient at this), and flat stacking are just a few that I noticed.

z-flo

11-17-2007, 10:07 PM

As often as we play Tetris, Chaos and I probably aren't as well-versed in common terminology; heck, only recently did we find out T-spin types had names. Could you clarify what those techniques mean?

DIGITAL

11-17-2007, 10:20 PM

Non-overstacking construction.

http://www.tetrisconcept.com/wiki/index ... nstruction (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Non-overstacking_construction)

Skimming

http://www.tetrisconcept.com/wiki/index ... e=Skimming (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Skimming)

Flat stacking is harder to describe. It's a form of stacking that leaves the field even. 'Even' refers to the height of the row, whether it be the field as a whole or just a certain part.

caffeine

11-17-2007, 10:27 PM

sweet competition! there's even techno music and a commentator.

maybe ttc people will see this and think "hey, they're not doing t-spins, maybe we should just abandon that idea..."

z-flo

11-17-2007, 10:39 PM

I think we were just lucky that there were no competitors who could actually consistently churn out TSTs. That was probably my biggest fear.

Thanks for the descriptions, even if the non-overstacking link didn't work. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

DIGITAL

11-17-2007, 10:54 PM

Sorry about that. I copied the wrong link and didn't pay attention. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Hmm, your biggest fear should not be someone that can consistently churn out TSTs but someone that can consistently churn out TSDs.

tepples

11-17-2007, 11:09 PM

An opening of TST to B2B Tetris, which fills more than half the playfield, can be a pain in the butt too.

DIGITAL

11-17-2007, 11:11 PM

Hehe, openings are still openings. What you do mid-game really determines the outcome.

caffeine

11-18-2007, 12:18 AM

you know, i was actually thinking about it the other day. if some day we see a game, with fast DAS, where players can play around 140+TPActiveM, if there's like a half-second line clear delay and tds-type soft dropping, then tetrises might overpower t-spins. it's all a matter of being fast enough, though.

z-flo

11-18-2007, 01:02 AM

Chaos achieved his qualifier score by doing a B2BTSD then Tetrising the rest. A lot of other players were T-spinning during practice, which is probably why I feared them in the first place.

Chaos

11-18-2007, 01:36 AM

With all that I need to work on, I'll probably be practicing a lot more now. Hopefully I can better the recognition of t-spin opportunity and get faster at the setups.

here's what my friend got to film of the tourney. So you guys can see how our competition was.

1st Team Match, Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx00c_cMsbw

1st Team Match, Round 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNMmBAWrHZ0

2nd Team Match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXTE_WGVoww

Team Semifinals 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONxgoTV7i7Q

Team Semifinals 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM8_yBw5pZY

Individual Semifinals 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-I2b8okaNA

Individual Semifinals 1 (me and z-flo): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOzmyqL9XFI

3rd Place Team Match, Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTjTlRFv31U

3rd Place Team Match, Round 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3U7Nh_M93Q

Team Finals Pretalk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YLwtM9c3v4

Team Finals, Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdFHgquEX0Y

Team Finals, Round 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-0G5sLYQ88

Individual Finals Pretalk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otc2YrOObU0

Individual Finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jSGRXPmVxA

Staff Game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3hgCGU7pS4

Notice how for team battles, me and z-flo are on the same team. Lol. For that staff game, it's me against that guy who I said was good. My friend's camera dies out after only getting part of the second game, but I won 1 out of 4 matches against him.

DIGITAL

11-18-2007, 01:48 AM

Nicely done with the videos!

From the looks of it, you guys totally outclassed the other players.

tepples

11-18-2007, 02:05 AM

I just watched "Tetris Cup Individual Semifinals 1".

Around 1:50: "tet-ruh-MEE-no"? Way to paper over the hottest spelling debate between the mathematician camp (tetromino) and the Tetris Holding camp (tetrimino) by putting a schwa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa) there. (Compare answers.com which claims te-TROM-i-no (http://www.answers.com/topic/tetromino-1?cat=technology).) Does he order "duh-MEE-nose" pizza (http://pinocchio.jk0.org/lj/tetpizza400.png)?

And notice how the announcer calls it the "straight tet-ruh-MEE-no" not the "I tet-ruh-MEE-no".

The "nick of time" comments around 2:40 make me wonder whether the announcer knows anything about the Random Generator.

DIGITAL

11-18-2007, 02:11 AM

tepples, you're such a critic. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif But aren't we all? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

And yeah, I was pondering about the pronunciation too. I always thought the stresses are on the second and fourth syllables.

Chaos

11-18-2007, 02:29 AM

Some competition is better than none at all though. Playing really well with the announcer talking does get a tad difficult at times. I didn't bother to pay attention to his pronunciation because I can't expect much from someone who knows little-to-nothing about the actual game itself.

DIGITAL

11-18-2007, 02:36 AM

Sooo....what happened to the prizes?

jujube

11-18-2007, 03:30 AM

you guys got to meet Alexey Pajitnov. that's awesome http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

i still can't get over the best-of-3 format though http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

caffeine

11-18-2007, 04:01 AM

i think the average untaught person will look at the word tetromino and will think tet-tro-mee-no and not te-trom-mee-no, and that's how i thought it was pronounced too for a while.

anyway, you guys are awesome for posting up video footage of the tournament. thanks a bunch. i'm totally gay for any kind of tetris competition video stuff.

z-flo

11-18-2007, 05:50 AM

From the looks of it, you guys totally outclassed the other players.

At the very least, the announcer talked about our playing styles more than others'. Not exactly a good thing, what with the other still very good players out there in the tournament... ah well.

DIGITAL

11-18-2007, 06:05 AM

I found it a little funny how the announcer described the playing styles. From what I saw, it seems you guys were the only ones using an actual strategy.

You guys should stop by the Blockstats chat sometimes. We host games there regularly especially on weekends.

massi4h

11-18-2007, 06:10 AM

Even though the announcer doesn't know much and uses un-tetris terms (straight tetromino with wierd pronounciation) it made it really epic. So far I've only watched the match between you two and well you both have good speed, but yeah there is quite a lot of overstacking and when you guys get close to the top you're sometimes rushing too much to tetris, rather than cancel.

But wow, awesome prizes, plus you both won the team tournament as well, congrats heaps guys, really wish I coulda been there.

jujube

11-18-2007, 06:53 AM

Around 1:50: "tet-ruh-MEE-no"? Way to paper over the hottest spelling debate between the mathematician camp (tetromino) and the Tetris Holding camp (tetrimino) by putting a schwa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa) there. (Compare answers.com which claims te-TROM-i-no (http://www.answers.com/topic/tetromino-1?cat=technology).) Does he order "duh-MEE-nose" pizza (http://pinocchio.jk0.org/lj/tetpizza400.png)?

it doesn't surprise me that someone would pronounce it that way, if they're thinking "tetra" + "mino". i mean, what the hell is a tetra minnow anyway?

http://www.ecoanimal.com.br/ecochannel/artigos/aquarioiniciantes_img/Tetramin.jpg
oh, nevermind.

gko

11-18-2007, 09:27 AM

Sooo....what happened to the prizes?

Well, for one, I saw their team mate lugging that Wii box home on the bus ... do none of you guys have cars!? It's a good thing she didn't win that TV! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

gko

11-18-2007, 09:44 AM

And yeah, I was pondering about the pronunciation too. I always thought the stresses are on the second and fourth syllables.

dunno, Columbia School of Broadcasting official pronunciation? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif The announcer is a radio DJ here. http://www.star1019.com/pages/maleko.html

Chaos

11-18-2007, 12:39 PM

Well my friend z-flo got $1500 towards air travel. Second prize was a 32 inch Sony Bravia (so much epic win with that prize). I got third and received an ipod touch (but i gave it to a good friend of mine). For the team tourney, we all got nintendo wiis...

I'm on blockstats once in a while, but I didn't know you guys hosted games. Maybe I'll check in more often.

Red_Star

11-18-2007, 12:40 PM

i've always thought it was pronounced like domino. like te-trom-ino. is that the way you guys are saying its pronounced or am I saying it wrong.

DIGITAL

11-18-2007, 12:58 PM

i've always thought it was pronounced like domino. like te-trom-ino. is that the way you guys are saying its pronounced or am I saying it wrong.

That's how I say it.

Red_Star

11-18-2007, 01:24 PM

all right, thanks . there needs to be an Encyclopedia Tetranica that has all the facts about the game tetris in it.

DIGITAL

11-18-2007, 01:28 PM

all right, thanks . there needs to be an Encyclopedia Tetranica that has all the facts about the game tetris in it.

What the TetrisConcept wiki will be eventually. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Pineapple

11-18-2007, 01:53 PM

i mean, what the hell is a tetra minnow anyway?
http://www.ecoanimal.com.br/ecochannel/artigos/aquarioiniciantes_img/Tetramin.jpg
oh, nevermind.

Phoxinus quadrupulus?

caffeine

11-18-2007, 08:18 PM

"For the team tourney, we all got nintendo wiis..."

man i wish i could've participated. i hear mario galaxy is almost as good as tetris.

Chaos

11-18-2007, 10:33 PM

"For the team tourney, we all got nintendo wiis..."

man i wish i could've participated. i hear mario galaxy is almost as good as tetris.LIES!!!!!111one. Nothing is as good as Tetris. Hahahahahaha...

z-flo

11-19-2007, 01:42 AM

Guitar Hero III for the Wii does come close, though... :-p

But yeah, I do need to work on avoiding overstacking. What with Handicap 1 being used for the tournament, though, there weren't that many opportunities to continuously work around it, instead providing for that "tennis" effect mentioned earlier. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

As for BlockStats, I might stop by later on today.

Chaos

11-19-2007, 02:49 AM

Guitar Hero III for the Wii does come close, though... :-ponly because they have dragonforce music in there...

massi4h

11-19-2007, 12:55 PM

Guitar Hero III for the Wii does come close, though... :-ponly because they have dragonforce music in there...lol you are so right (although the concept of guitar hero is still super awesome).

Anyway just watched the individual finals videos. Why didn't you let the Traci chick win? I woulda http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif Well watching her play she sorta knew how to tsd, but she completely ruined her stacking when doing it. She also was pretty slow and overstacked alot. The announcer isn't as tetrisless as he appears, he actually knew what t-spins are which really surprised me.

Also watched the team finals, awesomeness although there coulda been more targetting, but you guys did eliminate them pretty fast.

But yeah gg to you two and they said it's gonna go all over America. I wanna live in America now...

Chaos

11-19-2007, 03:14 PM

we didn't target because z-flo didn't want to. So respecting that request, we both just went "beast mode" and didn't bother to see who we'd hit. Lol.

z-flo

11-20-2007, 02:32 AM

Why didn't you let the Traci chick win? I woulda http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Also watched the team finals, awesomeness although there coulda been more targetting, but you guys did eliminate them pretty fast.

Well, y'see, I promised my girlfriend either a trip or a TV, so... >.>;

As for targeting, I eventually decided that it would be a waste of time, not to mention effort on the alternate's part. If we waited for the blinking mark to hit a specific person, while we probably would have sunk the player in, we ourselves would have been vulnerable to an attack.

DIGITAL

11-20-2007, 05:43 AM

While it would be effective to take out a strong player by targeting with every team member, your opponents were not at the level for that to really make a difference. And if you were dealing with strong players, you wouldn't have much time to target effectively anyway.

gko

11-20-2007, 11:27 AM

It was an awesome tourney. Hopefully I can get my friend to post up footage of our battle

Did your friend (or anyone else) take footage of the earlier matches? I didn't get there until the semi-final rounds. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

z-flo

11-20-2007, 12:43 PM

Look up "Tetris Cup" on YouTube. A friend of ours uploaded ... everything. >.>;

massi4h

11-20-2007, 01:00 PM

Well from targetting experience, I'm pretty sure there's only a couple of seconds before changing to each player. So 1 player could get 3 b2b tetrises (lets just leave t-spins out of it) in a span of less than 10 seconds, there would obviously be some garbage cancelling involved on both sides, but it still does a lot of damage. You have to go a little bit slower, but you can get the job done a lot better. And then when you get down to the last person, it gets fun where you go 3, 2, 1, Tetris! and they die.

My friends started doing that to me in 5v1 when they started getting better (sorry I like to brag) so I had to start targetting people and even with t-spins I can direct them pretty well.

About the HC1 thing, does HC1 give more straight line garbage than HC2? I always thought it was the other way around so I always played with HC1. If HC2 makes more sense, then I better start telling my local tournaments, because the worst thing that can happen is I send one tst, then get triple tetrised right back.

gko

11-20-2007, 02:05 PM

Look up "Tetris Cup" on YouTube. A friend of ours uploaded ... everything. >.>;

Just the semifinals on up, which I was present to watch. I'm curious about the earlier rounds ... so I can watch and think, "hey, I could beat that guy." http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

z-flo

11-20-2007, 04:01 PM

YouTube user Kamitra uploaded (http://www.youtube.com/user/kamitra)the tournament.

Massi4h, how often does your area (where?) hold local tournaments? What kinds of entry fees, etc., are there?

lee n

11-20-2007, 07:25 PM

Wait.. Sony sponsored a Tetris DS competition?

massi4h

11-21-2007, 02:10 AM

I live all the way in New Zealand (you may not know where that is lol). And there is only one tournament I know of and it's held every 3 months at a console gaming weekend in Auckland (the biggest city in New Zealand). $20 and you enter as many tournaments as you want, so I enter Halo and a couple others which I suck at, but I'm the reigning Tetris DS champion and I've won every tournament since it started http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

For rules if you wanna know, it's 1v1 HC1 no items. 16 players with 4 pools, top 2 from each pool go to single elimination which is based on seeding. Best of 5 for normal games and best of 7 for finals. Lotsa fun.

z-flo

11-21-2007, 02:42 AM

I KNOW WHERE NEW ZEALAND IS. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

What if more than 16 people enter the Tetris tournament? Or is there just a cap?

massi4h

11-21-2007, 02:46 AM

Oh OK lol. Normally I think first 16 entrants, but with the top 4 already enterered. I think we had 18 once and they were just put into pools of 5. Or something like that.

z-flo

11-21-2007, 03:20 AM

What kind of prizes or prize distribution?

massi4h

11-21-2007, 03:26 AM

The prizes are supplied by Softprint (the Nintendo of New Zealand) for all the nintendo tournaments. Prize is normally just a game of choice of whatever nintendo console which is usually awarded for 1st, 2nd and 3rd (yeah first deserves more http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif). I'll either get a game I want or just pick a new Wii game and then sell it which easily pays for the tournament (plus it's a weekend of heaps of fun) and I get some spare money. Not as big as I'd hope, but some good tetris competitions should be coming up in the future. Also recently, it's been changed for prizes to go out only to first place (and second in SSBM as that has a lot more players), but since I don't place top 3 in anything else, I stick with my prize for first place.

DIGITAL

11-21-2007, 03:52 AM

About the HC1 thing, does HC1 give more straight line garbage than HC2? I always thought it was the other way around so I always played with HC1. If HC2 makes more sense, then I better start telling my local tournaments, because the worst thing that can happen is I send one tst, then get triple tetrised right back.

Yep, HC1 gives extremely aligned garbage. You'd be doing yourself a favor by forcing everyone to play on a higher handicap hehe.

massi4h

11-21-2007, 03:58 AM

Lol OK thanks. I'll be sure to bring that up when the next tournament comes up.

Cause yeah alot of the Tetris Cup matches were just based on straight line garbage and those games are boring and take forever (plus straight line garbage is completely unfair imo). Also higher handicap = faster soft drop = easier t-spins lol.

gko

11-21-2007, 12:44 PM

YouTube user Kamitra uploaded (http://www.youtube.com/user/kamitra)the tournament.

I was actually hoping to see any footage of the early rounds individuals (when the field was still 16.)

Everyone else, here's an article (http://media.www.kaleo.org/media/storage/paper872/news/2007/11/15/MixedPlate/Tetris.Creator.Alexey.Pajitnov.Flies.In.For.Uh.Fin al.Round-3104864.shtml) from last week in the student paper mentioning Pajitnov's expected appearance. Nothing covering the tournament results though (considering someone worked for them.) http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif I had no idea Tetris Company LLC is based in Hawai`i. Maybe that's why we had the inaugural tournament.

Chaos

11-21-2007, 10:02 PM

well footage of earlier matches would be difficult to show as all entrants played at once. So footage of it probably isn't around.

tepples

11-21-2007, 10:40 PM

well footage of earlier matches would be difficult to show as all entrants played at once.

TV coverage of the British lawn tennis championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Championships,_Wimbledon) has footage of top seeded players even in the early rounds where they're blowing away players rated a thousand points below them.

Pineapple

11-21-2007, 10:57 PM

well footage of earlier matches would be difficult to show as all entrants played at once.
TV coverage of the British lawn tennis championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Championships,_Wimbledon) has footage of top seeded players even in the early rounds where they're blowing away players rated a thousand points below them.

But does Tetris have "rain stops play" ?

tepples

11-21-2007, 10:59 PM

But does Tetris have "rain stops play" ?

I forget. Which were the "slow" skins on The New Tetris (N64)?

Chaos

11-22-2007, 12:47 AM

well I only said that footage isn't around because the footage my friend got is only what she could tape (or cared to tape), so hoping that somebody else got footage of earlier matches is only up to if someone else was filming. And that's something I don't know of.

Pineapple

11-22-2007, 06:43 AM

But does Tetris have "rain stops play" ?
I forget. Which were the "slow" skins on The New Tetris (N64)?

Couldn't tell you. Gilly's site is down.

caffeine

11-22-2007, 12:49 PM

mayan, russian, and celtic were god awful.

Kamitra

12-12-2007, 08:16 PM

YouTube user Kamitra uploaded (http://www.youtube.com/user/kamitra)the tournament.
I was actually hoping to see any footage of the early rounds individuals (when the field was still 16.)

In my own defense, the coverage for the early matches was terrible. Not only was I still getting used to my camera (I had never recorded anything with it before -- it's a still camera, not a camcorder), there was almost /no/ video coverage showing the matches. It was only later did the announcer drag along the camera guy to show us what he was talking about (in brief showings that really didn't show much of the match itself), but really, not much could be seen.

Of course there was the spotlight on Z-flo and Chaos and the two leading teams, but even then it was difficult to see over people's heads and through the announcer's body. What makes it worse was that all these matches were conducted at the exact same time, so I ended up watching one screen and videotaping the other. The other matches were not shown fully on any screen.

So yeah, no offense meant or anything, but there wasn't much of anything to video tape.

(And as far as I know, I'm the only one to tape anything. People only took pictures. Chaos suggested once that anyone else that would have filmed anything was actually in the tournament...)

gko

12-18-2007, 01:04 PM

Any of you participants (Chaos, z-flo, Kamitra, anyone lurking) taking part in the user panel?

z-flo

12-19-2007, 01:07 PM

If we were, we'd probably not be at liberty to say. o_o;

colour_thief

12-19-2007, 02:05 PM

Any of you participants (Chaos, z-flo, Kamitra, anyone lurking) taking part in the user panel?

What is this user panel?

gko

12-21-2007, 01:26 PM

Any of you participants (Chaos, z-flo, Kamitra, anyone lurking) taking part in the user panel?

What is this user panel?

Everyone who registered in last month's Tetris Cup was invited to participate in discussion panels so they can improve on future tournaments.

In exchange for two hours, participants get free food, 25 bucks, and a pony!

kiwibonga

12-22-2007, 12:03 AM

If anyone's going, please forward my suggestions:

- Shut the announcer up

- Have security shoot anyone who screams when a contestant does a t-spin

- Organize the tournament atop Mt Everest... The last one was too accessible :p

caffeine

12-22-2007, 12:54 AM

make a tournament-ready tetris. that means fair.

1v1 (unless teams) player and opponent receive random garbage, not what we see in tetris ds with the see-saw tetrises. after two minutes, game goes into overtime where the screen shrinks one row every ten seconds. this is very useful for tournaments because of time-restraints. both these features i mentioned in this bullet are present in EA's latest version of multiplayer tetris for mobile phones. to me, it's a fair and fun multiplayer tetris. player and opponent receive same pieces-- as well as the same sequence of garbage. that means the hole in garbage row 1 for player a is the same as player b. this prevents one player from getting screwed because of the random element and not the other player. singles, doubles, triples, and tetrises should delay the exact amount of frames during their animation. this makes tetrises not only more powerful than triples (etc) because they send more garbage, but also because they save time: tetris (4 lines) / 20 frames is less than two doubles (4 lines) / 20 + 20 frames.

i could probably think of more.

Rosti LFC

12-22-2007, 01:40 AM

player and opponent receive random garbage, not what we see in tetris ds with the see-saw tetrises.

If you set the handicap to 5 on Tetris DS, you basically get that.

caffeine

12-22-2007, 02:40 AM

no, i think you get something worse. i'd have to test it, but i think it's worse than normal random (meaning it may try not to line up random holes).

Chaos

12-22-2007, 03:57 AM

tepples

12-22-2007, 04:15 AM

after two minutes, game goes into overtime where the screen shrinks one row every ten seconds. this is very useful for tournaments because of time-restraints.
Or slightly before this, get rid of garbage canceling.

player and opponent receive same pieces-- as well as the same sequence of garbage. that means the hole in garbage row 1 for player a is the same as player b. this prevents one player from getting screwed because of the random element and not the other player.
Which allows a sufficiently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man) autistic player (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wizard_%28film%29) to play slightly behind and memorize the other player's piece sequence, or to play slightly ahead and memorize the other player's garbage sequence. I used to do this all the time with garbage in Tetris & Dr. Mario: I'd send garbage to the opponent, watch for it to show up in the other player's field, drill down to the corresponding hole in my own field, and then tetris back any garbage I got, which was useful with the (now ridiculous) way that game's garbage was aligned. But even with random garbage, knowing what's coming next would help with T-spin forecasting (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=T-Spin_Forecast).

singles, doubles, triples, and tetrises should delay the exact amount of frames during their animation. this makes tetrises not only more powerful than triples (etc) because they send more garbage, but also because they save time: tetris (4 lines) / 20 frames is less than two doubles (4 lines) / 20 + 20 frames.

I believe that's already part of the guideline. Tetris DS already appears to do nearly this, inserting about 31 frames for a single, 32 for a double, 33 for a triple, and 34 for a tetris. (Lockjaw does the same thing.) All three versions on the NES (BPS, Tengen, Nintendo), plus the Game Boy version, have zero to negligible additional delay per line after the line clear delay, and so does TGM. In fact, the only Tetris product I can think of with a delay roughly proportional to number of lines cleared was Atari's arcade game.

kiwibonga

12-22-2007, 05:25 AM

Any of you participants (Chaos, z-flo, Kamitra, anyone lurking) taking part in the user panel?You do realize that that emai regarding the panel was meant solely for those who got the email. Meaning, you're not supposed to be asking entire forums about it. Do your friends invite you to parties, and you bring 50 other guys with you to it? No. I'd expect that if they said that the email in question was confidential and privileged, then I'd expect you'd give it that confidentiality that it deserves.

But we hate the Tetris company... Spreading their secret messages is the least we can do :p

caffeine

12-22-2007, 05:43 AM

"the only Tetris product I can think of with a delay roughly proportional to number of lines cleared was Atari's arcade game."

i was mainly thinking of tetris online japan.

and good point about garbage canceling. in a 1v1 game, i don't see any use in it. seems like planning a cancel would only work against you as you'd lose the time advantage. which leads me to what you were talking about with identical garbage. waiting to see what pieces the opponent gets is dumb because of piece preview, but worse so because you lose time advantage. seeing what garbage the opponent gets by playing ahead could be useful, but that's okay since we're motivating players to play ahead now (rather than waiting passively). in any case, it is much more fair than one opponent getting a lucky four garbage rows lined up (will happen 0.111111% of the time) where the other player gets four rows with none lined up (don't feel like doing the math).

DIGITAL

12-22-2007, 08:34 AM

Garbage cancelling is meant as a form of defense. If you're about to top out, you don't want to attack your opponent with 4 lines of garbage. You want to cancel the incoming lines. Without canceling, you'd send 4 rows and recieve just as much back if the other player sends a tetris, meaning you're back to the row height you were previously at. But if you had canceled 4 lines of garbage instead, your field will now be 4 rows lower. This adds another tactical aspect to the game in terms of timing your garbage.

tepples

12-22-2007, 08:40 AM

tetris online japan
[...]
waiting to see what pieces the opponent gets is dumb because of piece preview
More like "piece pay-per-view" in that case though.

but worse so because you lose time advantage.

Not if you play behind and make TSDs while the opponent is waiting for I tetrominoes to bust out a tetris.

jujube

12-22-2007, 10:39 AM

we're motivating players to play ahead now (rather than waiting passively).
what i wouldn't give to hear a TTC representative say that.

Garbage cancelling is meant as a form of defense. If you're about to top out, you don't want to attack your opponent with 4 lines of garbage. You want to cancel the incoming lines.

and that's why it's so hard to put a strong player away when they're near the top. you play well all game to gain an advantage, then the other player starts timing their line clears rather than trying to kick ass to get back in the game. what if each player receives 2 lines of garbage when a tetris is countered with a tetris? countering a tetris with a triple would give you 3 lines and the other player 1.

DIGITAL

12-22-2007, 12:11 PM

and that's why it's so hard to put a strong player away when they're near the top. you play well all game to gain an advantage, then the other player starts timing their line clears rather than trying to kick ass to get back in the game. what if each player receives 2 lines of garbage when a tetris is countered with a tetris? countering a tetris with a triple would give you 3 lines and the other player 1.

Hmm, both players have the capability to counter. If the weaker player is not able to defend against the stronger player, but the stronger player can defend against the weaker player, then wouldn't the better player have won anyway? Even though both players can turtle, I think it would be better to push the game towards offense like you suggested if it means the garbage will be random.

jujube

12-22-2007, 12:47 PM

Hmm, both players have the capability to counter. If the weaker player is not able to defend against the stronger player, but the stronger player can defend against the weaker player, then wouldn't the better player have won anyway? Even though both players can turtle, I think it would be better to push the game towards offense like you suggested if it means the garbage will be random.

i was really talking about a situation where the weaker player is in position to win but can't because the stronger player goes on the defensive. i think it's too easy for the stronger player to get back into the game. the stronger player would still win most of the time because the weaker player is rarely in a position to win.

Chaos

12-22-2007, 01:16 PM

muf

12-22-2007, 07:38 PM

DIGITAL

12-22-2007, 10:34 PM

i was really talking about a situation where the weaker player is in position to win but can't because the stronger player goes on the defensive. i think it's too easy for the stronger player to get back into the game. the stronger player would still win most of the time because the weaker player is rarely in a position to win.

Exactly. The weaker player should not be able to beat a stronger player and countering only reinforces that. Imagine if you take out T-Spins. Sure, the playfield is still even for both players but you just lost an element of depth. The gap between the weaker and stronger player decreases as a result.

caffeine

12-22-2007, 11:57 PM

DIGITAL

12-23-2007, 12:52 AM

i think you may be overly complicating things.

canceling or no canceling, the game is fair.
with canceling, you encourage passive play.
without, you encourage aggressive play.

an aggressive game is better to watch visually, and that's what ttc is clearly focusing in on right now.

in the end, i don't see canceling being very strategically deep at all. to me, it just seems like it makes the game last a little longer.

Yes, and that is why I said the defensive element should be reduced but not eliminated. Making the game purely agressive is too linear, maybe even boring in my opinion. Canceling plays a huge role in high level TDS matches. It allows a player to tactically get himself out of a potentially bad situation, not unlike combos in TOJ.

Chaos

12-23-2007, 03:02 AM

I'd expect that if they said that the email in question was confidential and privileged, then I'd expect you'd give it that confidentiality that it deserves.
Maybe if they stopped bullying innocent people (http://www.abednarz.net/tetris.html) ?As disgusted as I am with all this, I stand by the concept of "confidentiality" as a universal one. So even with good reason for everyone to have negative feeling towards them, I still give respect where respect is due.

caffeine

12-23-2007, 03:22 AM

chaos, TC has a tradition of exposing "inside tetris information." now if you were beta testing a new game or something that was clearly your-eyes-only, then i'd understand, but i doubt ttc would care much if a small group of people merely knew of the existence of a user panel. i think it's great they're reaching out to players for feedback. to my knowledge, they don't do that much.

Chaos

12-24-2007, 10:16 AM

jujube

12-24-2007, 11:32 AM

The weaker player should not be able to beat a stronger player

HUH-WAAAT?

ok, maybe a noob shouldn't beat a grandmaster, but a 7500 player should beat an 8000 player sometimes. and without garbage countering (or with nerfed countering) each player would have to bust their ass to win, and the 8000 player would still win most of the time. they just wouldn't have the defensive tricks to fall back on in a tough spot.

DIGITAL

12-24-2007, 11:59 AM

I think the issue you're bringing up isn't about whether or not to have or to not have defensive maneuvers in the game. It makes no difference whether or not the feature is included because both players are still on an even playfield.

I believe that a strong player that is consistently playing at a certain level should always beat a weaker player that is consistently playing at a lower level. That would completely rule out luck. If TDS had no luck factor involved in the gameplay, an always consistent 8000 player should never lose to an always consistent 7,500. Losses and wins should be determined by the player's performance, not though any sort of luck determined by the game.

caffeine

12-24-2007, 12:13 PM

"but if they're going to put an effort (even if a small one) to say that it's confidential"

oh, so the email said it was "confidential"? i didn't know that. in that case you'd be right.

jujube

12-24-2007, 12:38 PM

DIGITAL

12-24-2007, 12:51 PM

I believe that a strong player that is consistently playing at a certain level should always beat a weaker player that is consistently playing at a lower level. That would completely rule out luck. If TDS had no luck factor involved in the gameplay, an always consistent 8000 player should never lose to an always consistent 7,500.
yeah i couldn't agree more. the thing is, some players are at 7500 because they might play really well and beat an 8000 then make dumb mistakes and lose to a 7000 http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Yep, so true. The thing about TDS ratings is that players aren't always playing at the rating they might have. An 8000 player could be playing worse than usual and a 7,500 player could be playing better than usual, which decreases the gap between their skill levels. If the 7500 player is able to win, then he might have performed at a higher relative skill level compared to the 8000 player that round. Luck also plays a role to some extent. Still, it mostly comes down to player performance. The win and loss results may describe the irregularities in each player's performance or the influence of luck.

Chaos

12-25-2007, 04:02 PM

"but if they're going to put an effort (even if a small one) to say that it's confidential"

oh, so the email said it was "confidential"? i didn't know that. in that case you'd be right.aside from the actual message, here is what is quoted at the end of several emails I've received from them regarding such said panel.

"This message contains information that may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee or are authorized by the addressee, you may not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this message.'

lee n

12-25-2007, 04:25 PM

Unless you signed a Non-disclosure Agreement, then you're free to talk. They can't expect a little disclaimer at the bottom of the email to stop people from talking.

muf

12-25-2007, 08:05 PM

here is what is quoted at the end of several emails I've received from them regarding such said panel.

"This message contains information that may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee or are authorized by the addressee, you may not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this message.'

http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif You actually quoted parts of a privileged message!! Now they're going to sue you! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

4matsy

12-26-2007, 02:01 AM

Unless you are the addressee or are authorized by the addressee, you may not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this message.

So...if you are the addressee, you can disclose the info? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif
So, apparently, anyone that got the letter is perfectly free to share its contents. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

...Obviously, this probably isn't the interpretation they intended. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif
But that's what the wording technically says...