The true evangelism...

[muf]

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs019.snc1/2641_60457134532_532684532_1441719_4312886_n.jpg

[Corrosive]

I still dont know what ARS is exactly... in contrast to SRS.

[jujube]

oh come on muf, you know it was really
I http://avatars.imvu.com/catalog/web_images/news/echoes/updates_emoticon_heart.png LARDARSE

you don't have to hide your true feelings anymore.

corrosive: aside from the initial orientations of the pieces and colors being different, ARS uses a more basic wallkick table and limited floorkicks. it also uses step reset lock delay rather than "infinite spin". there are a few pages at the wiki that describe all of these things.

[kotetsu213]

If you rotate a piece in mid-air in ARS you'll see that the bottom of the piece stays on the same row (except the I), not so for SRS.
This means that none of the pieces will kick off the floor just by rotating, except in TGM3 with the I and T (once per piece.)
In SRS the pieces spawn with the "flat" side down, in ARS it's the opposite.
Also ARS has fewer wallkicks than SRS. In general this means that in 20G, ARS is more limited and challenging but has some (arguably) useful moves that are hard or impossible in SRS.

(was typing this when jujube edited his post, oh well I'm posting this anyway)

[Rosti LFC]

In single-player, ARS makes the game extremely challenging. SRS makes it piss-easy.

All the other differences are merely technicalities.

[Ray Ayanami]

SRS is like "hey, let's do bullshit moves like climb over pieces."

ARS cuts the BS, save for pre-TGM3 ARS that makes I's my worst nightmare in 20G.

[jujube]

22.4 seconds of piss-easiness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8I8b9Nt74E)
5 minutes and 14 seconds of climbing over pieces (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnY90bZa6JI)
http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_evil.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

of course it's easier to survive with SRS. that's not good enough for some people though. any system can be hardcore in the right hands.

[Rosti LFC]

But with SRS being good is optional. With ARS it's a requirement. And it's not like there aren't faster runs than that with ARS.

All TGM modes are a lot easier with SRS. The challenges of Shirase and things like the Team modes on Blockbox are almost completely neutralised by using SRS.

[colour_thief]

Step reset makes them completely different games, especially with Shirase 1200-1300. Even the best World players seem to abuse the system to some extent. But despite my signature I actually agree that it can be very hardcore. The biggest problem in TGM3 is the game wasn't actually rebalanced for SRS.

[TWF]

Colour_thief, firstly I'd like to say that I love your signature.

I agree that the Ti developers could have done a better job retuning the game for World. I'm not sure how they would do that, though. Do you have any suggestions? It definitely seems like there must be a way to, as Rosti mentioned, force skilled play in World, but I can't think of one. Maybe more and stricter torikans? Harder Master grading requirements?

SRS Death is actually pretty fun in blockbox, though, I have to admit.

[tepples]

I agree that the Ti developers could have done a better job retuning the game for World. I'm not sure how they would do that, though. Do you have any suggestions?
It's called HAI: Half Assed Infinity. In rules with move reset, have rotations and shifts fill to no more than half the level's nominal lock delay. For instance, at a level where lock delay is 30 frames, and the user has used 20 of them (stateTime = 10), set stateTime back to 15. Only the first floor kick or a net downward movement can replenish the full lock delay, just like in rules with step reset.

If Mr. Rogers doesn't like HAI, then just provide 30 frames for rules with step reset and 15 frames for rules with move reset, etc.

SRS Death is actually pretty fun in blockbox, though, I have to admit.
In Lockjaw, set speed curve to Death and play the Guideline scenario. Is that also fun?

[Rosti LFC]

In Lockjaw, set speed curve to Death and play the Guideline scenario. Is that also fun?

No, because it's in Lockjaw. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[colour_thief]

Do you have any suggestions?

Not without violating the guideline so hard it needs counselling.

[Zaphod77]

My proposal for removal of infinity is the following.

I've probably said it before.

Use step reset, but detect upward kicks. When an upward kick is performed, perform one reset to two or maybe 3 times the normal lock delay, but do not perform another until the pieces drops lower than the level that the upward kick is performed at. If this expires before the piece drops low enough, the piece will hard drop from it's current spot and lock instantly. (This will also stop the infamous "i-roll" where you can cause the I to kick upwards IN MIDAIR.)

Combine this with 1g autoshift and reasonable DAS, and we should have something playable.

You will still be able to get pieces over walls. But you will have to do it quickly, and stalling will be impossible.

PS: I have it on Good Authority that auto-shift rate is not actually written in stone in the Guideline.

[jujube]

(This will also stop the infamous "i-roll" where you can cause the I to kick upwards IN MIDAIR.)
that's all well and good, but will it stop the infamous ____ ____ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU)?

[tepples]

(This will also stop the infamous "i-roll" where you can cause the I to kick upwards IN MIDAIR.)
I see some similarities between your proposal and HAI, and between your proposal and what I tried to do in TOD (step recover, when what I was ultimately aiming for was net-step reset). But at least the I-roll isn't as bad as some of the rolls that could be done in Tetris DX. Mr. Rogers was smart not to put that $#!@+ into the guideline.

that's all well and good, but will it stop the infamous ____ ____ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU)?
You mean the hamster roll (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf_EOFDpPlk)?

[Rosti LFC]

(This will also stop the infamous "i-roll" where you can cause the I to kick upwards IN MIDAIR.)
that's all well and good, but will it stop the infamous ____ ____ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU)?

"This video is not available in your country"

Damn YouTube.

[TWF]

In Lockjaw, set speed curve to Death and play the Guideline scenario. Is that also fun?

No, because it's in Lockjaw. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[caffeine]

You shouldn't insult tepples that way when he's put so much work into LJ. You don't have to like the game, but show some tact.

[clincher]

WHAT? lockjaw is the best for 40lines imo

[TWF]

You shouldn't insult tepples that way when he's put so much work into LJ. You don't have to like the game, but show some tact.
Sorry about that. I'll admit that it is very modular and clearly polished, and I use it for 40lines. But besides that, it feels more tuned for guideline-style play than for TGM play, which is what I'm interested in. I respect LJ but I don't play it much.

Also, the 0 frame line clear delay isn't actually 0 frames, as far as I can tell.

[ryanheise]

My proposal for removal of infinity is the following.

I've probably said it before.

Use step reset, but detect upward kicks. When an upward kick is performed, perform one reset to two or maybe 3 times the normal lock delay, but do not perform another until the pieces drops lower than the level that the upward kick is performed at. If this expires before the piece drops low enough, the piece will hard drop from it's current spot and lock instantly. (This will also stop the infamous "i-roll" where you can cause the I to kick upwards IN MIDAIR.)


Tessellate has an option similar to this called "Strong Step Reset". When selected, lock delay is reset only when the active piece has dropped lower than it has ever been before.

[jujube]

that sounds like a good thing to try with SRS.

[Kitaru]

From what I recall, that is the way that Tetris New Century behaves when Infinity is turned off.

[jujube]

i thought TNC used regular step reset with infinity off. i seem to remember J,L,S,T,Z locking suddenly after a rotation that dropped the piece down but didn't cause the 3x3 rotation box to drop.

[Zircean]

Actually, the true evangelism is using TC as a test for the DSi browser. Seriously, this is the first site I went on.

[muf]

Actually, the true evangelism is using TC as a test for the DSi browser. Seriously, this is the first site I went on.
How does that evangelise TGM? Was a crowd of spectators behind you? Did you tape yourself testing it out and put it on youtube?

[Zircean]

Maybe I did it in the secret church of TGM?

[Rosti LFC]

Maybe I did it in the secret church of TGM?

But then you'd just be preaching to the converted...

[Zircean]

Fair enough. You win this round...

[KevinDDR]

I'm going to run the first TGM tournament outside of Japan. I'm also going to host a TGM/Tetris panel, and provide materials promoting tetrisconcept and TGM in general.

Do I win?

[m:)]

Fair enough. You win this round...

Maybe I did it in the secret church of TGM?

But then you'd just be preaching to the converted...



but this is what evangelicals do http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[Zaphod77]

Tetris new century does not reset the lock delay at ALL during your maneuvering, often resulting in it getting stuck as you are trying to flip it over the pieces in the way.

What I propose will allow some extra time to let you complete your maneuvers without imposing an arbritary rotation or movement limit.

[jujube]

sure, as long as in the later levels the lock delay decreases to the point where you don't have time to do climbing. there has to be a challenge that forces you to stack in a way that allows for quick easy placements.

[Rosti LFC]

How about just have it so that it ignores kick reset and has step reset only, so it can lock when climbing over pieces? I don't see any reason to allow climbing at all. If you're struggling because you don't have time to climb over things then you shouldn't have stacked so badly.

[Zaphod77]

well if you don't want to climb, then use ARS. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

Seriously, the only reason to use SRS in the first place is the mobility of the wallkicks, and therefore the game needs to provide enough time to perform the climbing. Preventing those moves goes against the intent of the rotation system.

Even with the expanded delay, you still have to do your climbing fast. The lack of ARE in particular is why the extra time is needed to do the climbing. you can't charge DAS during non-existent ARE.

[tepples]

well if you don't want to climb, then use ARS. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

Seriously, the only reason to use SRS in the first place is the mobility of the wallkicks
And the flat-down initial stances, perhaps.

[caffeine]

Seriously, the only reason to use SRS in the first place is the mobility of the wallkicks [...] Preventing those moves goes against the intent of the rotation system.

To further on what tepples said, the flat-down orientations are "smarter" in 20G, and you don't need to rely on IRS to flatten the tetromino to move over gaps. Also, don't neglect the additional orientations for S/Z/I: they allow for less keys/tetromino. The kicks are the only thing about SRS that don't make sense. The rest is pretty cool.

[Zircean]

Stuff can make sense, but we can still hate it and call it cheap http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif It makes things like 20G too easy. IRS is totally useless.

But it's fine in 0G, and kicks don't matter so much.

DRS, on the other hand, works reasonably well in 0G and 20G because it has 3 state S/Z/I and ARS style rotation tables (bottom of piece on the bottom of the box).

SRS without the stupid shit is TOD M4 rotation, though.

[jujube]

Stuff can make sense, but we can still hate it and call it cheap http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif It makes things like 20G too easy.
ACE-ARS with move reset doesn't provide much of a forced challenge.
(you were talking about SRS initial orientations making it too easy, or something else?)

IRS is totally useless.
i wouldn't say that. you can play significantly faster if you use IRS. if you're not using it, and you're playing at a medium pace and reach a high grade, then i would say the grading system is too lenient.

edit: i meant that if you're playing a mode that has ARE, you'll play a lot faster if you use IRS. not to say that you can't play fast with SRS and zero ARE in 20G.

[Rosti LFC]

well if you don't want to climb, then use ARS. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif



See, I'd argue if you don't want to climb you should become a better player and avoid the necessity to in the first place. The escape route shouldn't need to be offered to players. They should increase the difficulty and the amount of skill involved to survive beyond just the requirement to make quick placements. They should force you to make quick placements which are also good placements.

[jujube]

They should force you to make quick placements which are also good placements.
yeah.

[Zaphod77]

For better or worse, SRS removes most of the stacking challenge from high speed play.

Additionally, it rapidly becomes unplayable under step reset because of the way the wallkicks work.

I used to think it was a good idea. unti i played Tetris: New Century. Anyone who says otherwise needs to play that game before arguing with me. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

The pieces simply fly off too far to do the precision stacking that is possible under ARS.

THerefore, it's pretty much a requirement to allow some extra time for adjustment.

Even if you don't wan to climb, the rotation systems bizarre wallkicks force you into it. And when you aren't given enough time to do it, you get horrible misdrops with the piece freezing 3-4ths of the way there. 1G autoshift doesn't always help here. Oh look, the piece jumped across the hole when you rotated and flew over two spaces. time to tap tap back. oh wait it locked. Or worse, it went down in a farther location, and you need to climb it back up.

[caffeine]

The pieces simply fly off too far to do the precision stacking that is possible under ARS.

THerefore, it's pretty much a requirement to allow some extra time for adjustment.

Even if you don't wan to climb, the rotation systems bizarre wallkicks force you into it. And when you aren't given enough time to do it, you get horrible misdrops with the piece freezing 3-4ths of the way there. 1G autoshift doesn't always help here. Oh look, the piece jumped across the hole when you rotated and flew over two spaces. time to tap tap back. oh wait it locked. Or worse, it went down in a farther location, and you need to climb it back up.
You need more practice with it. What you describe simply doesn't happen with me.

[muf]

Oh look, the piece jumped across the hole when you rotated and flew over two spaces.
Could you show me exactly where this is happening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdtW_vBKBgo)?

[m:)]

Could you show me exactly where this is happening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdtW_vBKBgo)?

does Ti's world rule allow you to climb over pieces?

[muf]

does Ti's world rule allow you to climb over pieces?
Of course. It implements standard Guideline SRS, with all the wallkicks and other quirks, down to the requirement of the "rightmost button being a clockwise rotation", which totally messes up the game because Ti has three rotation buttons (this is notoriously known as "World-reverse"), and locking hard drop.