Movement Finesse (Tetris DS)

[gregory109123]

I've been playing Tetris DS, and have gotten pretty good. I didn't know where to go after that so i looked around the wiki. I found out about t-spins, and there was another article called movement finesse. Tetris DS is, as I understand, a slow DAS game. But the wiki tells you how to move "finessely" in fast DAS. I was wondering where (if there is) I could find a guide on how to move "finessely" in slow DAS.

I've tried timing myself, seeing how much faster it would be to tap the Right button 3xs or to DAS to the wall then scoot back. Neither had a consistent time, but the average was around .7 sec for both. If DAS isn't supposed to exceed the speed you can tap the button, would learning how to press the button faster make tapping faster? or would DASing always be the max speed?

[Zaphod77]

Tapping can definitely beat the DAS in most guideline games, and Tetris DS is no different.

Gerneally unless you actuall want to get the piece to the wall, it's faster to tap in that game.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

If DAS isn't supposed to exceed the speed you can tap the button, would learning how to press the button faster make tapping faster? or would DASing always be the max speed?

Your question is worded rather strangely. Learning how to press the button faster would make tapping faster. Isn't that obvious?

I think your real question is whether to tap or use DAS. I don't play Tetris DS enough to know this for sure, but I'm pretty sure DAS is slow enough that, if you tap at a resaonable (somewhat fast) speed, tapping will always be faster than relying on DAS. The only exception would be when you're waiting for a line clear, in which case you can charge DAS during that time.

Then there's rotation to consider, like how Ss and Zs have 4 rotation states so whether you rotate it cw or ccw actually makes a difference and could require you to make one less tap for movement.

[caffeine]

You definitely need to tap at least three times. That's what I do in slow DAS on gamepad. (I do four tap on keyboard.) I remember one guy tapped for everything and ignored DAS, like in the old days of Game Boy Tetris.

For optimal finesse with three tap, tap for any move that requires three or less taps, and for the rest use the wiki's diagrams. Don't forget about that one with J/L/T where you DAS to the right wall and the rotate so that the piece fills columns 8 and 9. Also for S/Z/T/L/J, don't DAS to the left wall as you would instinctively--it's only three taps away.

[gregory109123]

Oh, I see, so only DAS when its 4 or more taps. I've been trying to get rid of my bad habits, such as using only one rotation, not looking at my preview, etc. But one of them is that I, instead of tapping 3x, I just DAS 3 spaces and drop. I know this is not optimal for fast DAS games, as you will misdrop, but for slow DAS like Tetris DS (where it's much easier to get the timing), would DASing 3 spaces be faster than tapping 3? I've been playing like that for so long that if I close my eyes, I can get all my pieces (except for I, it's too long), to the exact spot (one from the wall) without "bouncing it". So I guess my question is if I could DAS 3 spaces would that be faster than tapping? And is it possible to tap faster than DAS?

[caffeine]

Tap three instead of DAS 3. It's probably possible to tap faster than DAS altogether in Tetris DS. There's people out there that can tap pretty fast.

Look at it as a long term investment. So you'll suck for a couple of weeks. Once you renounce the bad habits, you'll be better than before.

[gregory109123]

Alright, I'll start tapping. After I learn the finesses, where should I go from there? And is there a good way to practice the finesses?

[caffeine]

Do it perfectly. You'll be slow at first, but don't make any mistakes. When you catch on, practice without seeing the active piece. You can do that by covering up a portion of the screen and turning off shadow (as shown here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaeznv0SCAI)), or you can use that feature in Lockjaw. If learn to play without seeing the active piece or shadow--and are able to play really fast, then finesse becomes like a sixth sense.

[gregory109123]

Oh, thanks, I'll try that. I've been watching myself play, and I've noticed that I get into some REALLY bad castle structures, so bad that it take like 3 Is to fix, and by time i fix it, I'm dead. Are there any techniques to avoid this?

[DIGITAL]

Oh, thanks, I'll try that. I've been watching myself play, and I've noticed that I get into some REALLY bad castle structures, so bad that it take like 3 Is to fix, and by time i fix it, I'm dead. Are there any techniques to avoid this?
For clarity, could you perhaps create a diagram of the situation you are referring to?

You can use this tool to draw it out.
http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/ (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/default.htm)

[m:)]

Oh, thanks, I'll try that. I've been watching myself play, and I've noticed that I get into some REALLY bad castle structures, so bad that it take like 3 Is to fix, and by time i fix it, I'm dead. Are there any techniques to avoid this?

don't be afraid to cap off your stack and skim it if you need to. granted these situations should be avoided, but you can always cap it and skim it before it gets to ugly waiting for too many I's

[iphys]

If you have the option, it helps to place pieces in their widest orientation (0 or 2 rotations) rather than their tallest orientation so you can keep your stack relatively level; otherwise, you start getting that castle structure or lots of towers and deep wells.

[gregory109123]

Okay http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisFie ... BPXBDLBAAA (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_407eJ2dIRnBKfB1iBWhB6aBXYBPXBDLBAAA), it's there. I took that from a game that I played today. That structure is just an example. I notice now that if I had placed that L flat, then it wouldn't have happened. Could you describe what cap and skim means? So I think looking at my preview more, and stacking flat would be some of the best things to do?

[DIGITAL]

What m:) meant by capping is to compromise and cover up the hole that requires an I tetromino to fix before it gets too deep, which then requires more than 1 I to fix. Skimming is another concept altogether and you can take a look at it here (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/Skimming).

From the diagram, I see that you meant those 1x3 deep wells rather than castle structures which are more like teeth structures. There are some really common patterns that you should recognize to steer clear of them as soon as possible. I'll try and post some later when I get the time.

[jujube]

i'm a little confused because this sequence of pieces couldn't have come from a game using the random generator (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/Random_Generator), such as Tetris DS. there were several ways to place the pieces to avoid deep narrow holes though:
http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisFie ... BPZBnSBjIB (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_407eI2dIRnBKfB1iBWhBycBPZBnSBjIB)
http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisFie ... BPZBPPBDLB (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_407eI2dIRnBKfB1iBWhB6aBPZBPPBDLB)

it's also ok to leave a little hole and focus solely on flattening the top of the stack. this can lead to a T-spin, or at the very least it's a good defensive strategy which keeps you from stacking high over any column where a garbage hole could potentially appear:
http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisFie ... peB?AAAmbB (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_407eO2dIRnBKfB1iBWhBycBnSBHWBDQBEZB1WBrTBpeB ?AAAmbB)

or going back to the T placement, maybe it's better to put it on top of the J. this placement feels more comfortable to me, even without knowing that another L is coming soon:
http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisFie ... IRnBKfBVhB (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_407eD2dIRnBKfBVhB)
maybe this is just personal preference and not necessarily the best way. come to think of it, i would put the first J against the left wall.

[DIGITAL]

These (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_40UeYiobYiobZiwbA4GUeoUoboUIwnboUQpJwubAAA) are just some common sense maneuvers to avoid. The first frame is the most obvious and can be avoided by simply placing the piece as close to the wall as possible. The second frame is a bit more deceiving but it's almost the same concept as the first. Placing the J tetromino in such a manner limits the tetrominoes you can place in columns 1-2. Limitations in placements are often the cause of 1x3 wells.

The next set is a bit different and shows examples of placements that ignore tetromino properties. Let's get a simple one out of the way first. This (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_40TeB3gbssgbD3gbB3tsgbD3gbC3ssgbD3qbA4G) is probably an obvious one and it suggests that the T tetromino doesn't play well with this kind of flat terrain. A more complex example would be the 020 structure (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_40JeB3ibD3gbB3gbYigbD3gbB3gbYigbD3gbC3ZiD3qb ?A4G_2FdB3ibD3jb8eobEYnbA3EYA3nbEYIwubAAA) (020 stands for the relative height of the stack; in this example, we are looking at columns 3-5 where column 4 is 2 rows higher than columns 3 and 5). Here, you are forced to use an I if you fill one side with a J/L. Extending this concept even further, we get the 010 structure (http://kitsune-zeta.com/Tools/TetrisField/?v105_40JeB3ibD3gbB3ibD3gbB3gbssgbD3gbB3usD3qbA4G_ 2F?dB3ibD3tbssnbA3gbssmb0lgb0lubAAAWeYiobZinb0lEYu ?bAAA). This is probably the one you run into the most and can be the most difficult one to deal with if you get a bad string of tetrominoes. It often sneaks up on you and if you are caught off guard, it can lead to massive screwups.

That's not to say that you shouldn't use an I tetromino if you have to. Even the best of players get a brain lapse from time to time and run into 1x3 wells. In some cases, it's even done intentionally because the player can spare an I tetromino or he foresaw trouble and prevented it by making such a placement. But I'm sure you realize that forcibly running into these situations all the time is not a good thing because it limits your placement options.

[Zaphod77]

TO deal with the
4-0-0-0-4

We have the following options.

1) place an L or J in horizontally. You can fit a number of other pieces in that way.
2) place a t in. This creates the 0-1-0, which is properly filled by the following

a) another t, then an L or J depending on which way you placed the t.
b) fill in tetris hole, then skim with L or J.
c) S or Z, followed by an I.

3) A S or a Z doesnt' work well, and requires you to fill the tetris hole and skim.
4) an O. check the preview for a following L or J, and drop the O in so you can place it.
5) an I. this is just silly, thoguh it can be followed by an O, L, or J easily.

[caffeine]

Nice ideas guys. With practice, you learn to fix these problems before the come up. Don't forget that you can always hold that O, and you can almost always "dump" the bad piece by platforming them over your empty column at the right, which will waste one or two lines.

[Zaphod77]

yeah. with 7 previews ther'es o excuse for screwing up that situation. If you get two snakes in a row, just send the z off to the left vertically, and place something undr the overhang later, and put something else in the hole.

[jujube]

the nice thing about 7-bag is you don't really have to watch all the previews to know what to do. that's why i was confused about the set of pieces gregory received, which looked like they came from a game with a memoryless or history 4 randomizer. the O came a bit late, and the Z never came at all. only one of them could've been held while duplicates of J and L were being placed. a Z would've fix the awkwardness before it turned into a deep narrow hole.

[gregory109123]

The order the pieces came down, wasn't exact. During the game I just recognized the castle/well structure and paused and entered the diagram. Some lines were cleared before, and there were some holes underneath, but I just posted the top. sorry for any confusion. I called my problem castling because I always get into castle structures, try to build around it, but end up making wells because of the lack of Ts. I think I get the idea now, thanks for the help.