DTET

http://dtet.web.infoseek.co.jp/dtet/mpg/dttaadv.mpg

http://dtet.web.infoseek.co.jp/dtet/mpg/dtvspr.wmv

[colour_thief]

You're such a tease B.G., the actual game has been removed from the website for some time now. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif Care to share it with us?

[K]

WTF ?

anybody have this game ?

where is uploader?

[Nick15]

Would it kill anyone to make a cross-platform, online Tetris game with TGM-esque playability??

[tepples]

As soon as somebody describes TGM rotation precisely, I'm on it.

[colour_thief]

where is uploader?


http://www.megaupload.com/ (http://www.megaupload.com/default.htm)


This one is popular. But maybe too complicated for you to use?

[K]

Would it kill anyone to make a cross-platform, online Tetris game with TGM-esque playability??

i agree...

It is Advanced TGM rotation system.


http://dtet.web.infoseek.co.jp/dtet/tech.htm

[Nick15]

As soon as somebody describes TGM rotation precisely, I'm on it.


Now by "cross platform", I only mean make it for only Mac OS X and Windows. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

[colour_thief]

Limited time offer:


DOWNLOAD DTET


http://individual.utoronto.ca/puzzles/dtet.lzh


Please be gentle with my bandwidth.


Also, look at the unique techniques that are possible:

http://dtet.web.infoseek.co.jp/dtet/tech.htm

[Nick15]

Limited time offer:

DOWNLOAD DTET

http://individual.utoronto.ca/puzzles/dtet.lzh

Please be gentle with my bandwidth.

Also, look at the unique techniques that are possible:
http://dtet.web.infoseek.co.jp/dtet/tech.htm


If bandwidth is a problem, I can rehost it if you want....

ahh.

too sorry.

mistaked.


Tetris DX (X) + Tetris 64 (Y) + TGM-like rotation system, Mihys says.

[colour_thief]

Well, that's webspace through my school. Or what was my school until recently, rather. I just don't want to draw attention to my account since it should technically no longer exist.

[B.G.]

Joker mode replay (player:Mihys, DTET creator)


http://with2ch.net/cgi-bin/up/src/with2chup1698.zip

[colour_thief]

Joker mode replay (player:Mihys, DTET creator)

http://with2ch.net/cgi-bin/up/src/with2chup1698.zip


403 : Forbidden


http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

[B.G.]

hmmm


http://mata-ri.tk/up1/src/1M1949.zip.html

DLpass:dtet

[colour_thief]

Hmmmm.


403: forbidden


Again!

Maybe these sites do not like foreigners. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

[kotetsu213]

I d/led it just fine.

[caffeine]

I d/led it just fine. likewise. mihys kicks.

[colour_thief]

Hmmmm....


Maybe an over zealous firewall on my end?

What port to open...

[herc]

please, could someone email / provide a download link for dtet?


i have a webserver with unlimited bandwith, so i could in return post a more stable downloadlink here..

[caffeine]

i found this laying around... http://rapidshare.com/files/3078954/dtet.zip.html ;]

[colour_thief]

Wow. I randomly deleted it from my limited webspace to make room for other stuff less than 24 hours ago. What were the odds?

[Rosti LFC]

What exactly is DTET?

[colour_thief]

It's an oldish TGM inspired Tetris clone with a whole bunch of gameplay additions. More wallkicks... ARE cancelling... Those are the major additions. The latest Heboris has "DRS" or something which is another implementation of it, if you feel like trying it out with a modern look.

[sihumchai]

In my own words: DTET is a frankenstein mix of ARS and SRS gameplay. It's super fast like TDS, no spawn piece delay as you hard drop. Good vs. mode, uses combo system.


I think the DRS that C_T was refering to is the Double Rotation System.. Where you can double-rotate without having the wall-kick/animation preventing you from rotating.


This is one of the most common moves that mihys uses. Tho there are alot of other variation.


   [][]
xxx[]xx     xxx[]xx
xxx[]xx  -> xxx[]xx
x    xx     x[][]xx

[colour_thief]

I was led to believe that DRS was a complete duplication of DTET's rules, as per 2ch's conversations. I could be wrong but I think they are pretty much the same.

[sihumchai]

I've actually abandoned DTET due to DRS, as they call it.. Because it could/would affect my TGM/TDS gameplay style. It's fun to make mistakes in DTET, knowing that you can fix those holes with the right pieces, and the right combination of buttons.


Oh, DTET is also good for you 4-player TDS fanatics.. No items.. but.. imagine Tetrises after tetrises pilling up on your screen. Not to mention, the computer knows how to use combo's very well, so you'll be getting garbages that scatters everywhere. (from all players, no targetting)


Unlike heboris's CPU which will sometimes create two wells, or three and top-out on their own.

[herc]

here is my link for DTET:


http://www.coreloop.com/dump/dtet4.zip


is it freeware? i cant understand the (japanese?) docs inside the zip...

[colour_thief]

It's freeware. The file was pulled from the homepage after Mihara mentioned that part of the reason for a huge delay between TGM2 and TGM3 was that TTC was unhappy with the Japanese tetris clones that were inspired by TGM. The commercial clone Texmaster was probably more of a prblem, but the DTET author removed the download out of respect anyways.

[Amnesia]

This tetris is absolutly wonderfull !

Easy to use !


Now we have the perfect tetris to organize a real contest between TDS and TGM players.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif
I take bets !


1st : Jagorochi

2nd : caffeine

3rd : Hmmm http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif ...Matt_hatter?? No..Colour_thief! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

[cdsboy]

does it allow over the internet play? And i might accualy have a chance at this version i really like it

[colour_thief]

Jago is actually terrible at VS! I'm not that great either, but I can beat jago.

[Amnesia]

Can we plug a stick with this tetris??

Sorry for this question if it has been already asked..


I'm very excited..I've never played against a player like you or Jagorochi..please promise me a fight with you colour_thief..

But not now.. I must practice..I can't correctly anticipate several position after rotation..

[colour_thief]

Sure I'll play you, but I've got a busy couple of weeks coming up. Consider it trainning time! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

[Rosti LFC]

TGM players will beat TDS players. I'm not used to using a keyboard for Tetris at all, so won't stand much of a chance. I'm awful compared to TDS, unless I buy a gamepad adapter.

[caffeine]

just remember dtet is different from srs as much as it is from tgm. but yeah, of course i'd love to play you.

[mat]

1st : Jagorochi
2nd : caffeine
3rd : Hmmm http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif ...Matt_hatter?? No..Colour_thief! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif


haha!

[K]

yeah i'm bad on VS ! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

so surely :


1)caffeine

2)...

3)...

..

...

200) jago

[sihumchai]

Did I spark up a DTET hype? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

does it allow over the internet play? And i might accualy have a chance at this version i really like it

I think it only allows local LAN play.. I've tried it before, and maybe I've been doing it all wrong.

TGM players will beat TDS players. I'm not used to using a keyboard for Tetris at all, so won't stand much of a chance. I'm awful compared to TDS, unless I buy a gamepad adapter.


In a game of strict rotation, timing, and sliding? Naw.. Tetris players will beat whoever in their own environment(wow, like that word).. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

[caffeine]

"Tetris players will beat whoever in their own environment(wow, like that word)"


i think we're underestimating a player's ability to move from one environment to another. jin8 instantly mastered tds, coming from tgm. noah (as well as a lot of other 8000+ tds players), on the other hand, never played tgm-- coming straight from famicon or game boy.

[cdsboy]

i think the hardest gap to jump for TDS players is the keyboard. I know for one when i started playing tgm it killed me because of the keyboard. And then slowly i started to loose my gamepad skills, so now i can't even maintain the poor rank i have now on tds.

[caffeine]

let's not confuse "tgm players" with "players who want to play tgm but can't." if you're not playing in an arcade with a stick and all, you're likely not really a tgm player. from what i've heard, playing with a stick is a whole nother experience. not that i'm saying you shouldn't be playing with a keyboard-- the keyboard's awesome for tetris. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[sihumchai]

"Tetris players will beat whoever in their own environment(wow, like that word)"

i think we're underestimating a player's ability to move from one environment to another. jin8 instantly mastered tds, coming from tgm. noah (as well as a lot of other 8000+ tds players), on the other hand, never played tgm-- coming straight from famicon or game boy.


I guess mastering is a different story http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

But my point of view was coming from- when Rosti said, "TGM players will beat TDS players".. I find this untrue.


As I've seen you guys, TDS, LJ players: You guys a freaking fast. Lightning. Definitely whoop(mine actually) our asses.


As with TGM players: I see more grace, concentration, and the ability to stack, twist and turn at precise moments.


So I think of it as TWO catagories.. The speed competition(TDS/SRS), and the surviving competition(TGM).. They are no way the same game, nor can they be put head-to-head in a battle of TGM player vs. TDS player.


Just my thoughts, hope I ain't crapping http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[caffeine]

that's an interesting viewpoint.

[tepples]

i think we're underestimating a player's ability to move from one environment to another.
Would it be easier to learn to defeat tetlag on a game that switches between TDS and TGM rules after each line clear?

if you're not playing in an arcade with a stick and all, you're likely not really a tgm player.
What's the big difference between a stick (http://www.x-arcade.com/default.htm) and a stick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_3ANintendo_64.jpg)?

As I've seen you guys, TDS, LJ players: You guys a freaking fast. Lightning. Definitely whoop(mine actually) our asses.
Aren't the people who play Shirase mode in TGM3 fast too?

As with TGM players: I see more grace, concentration, and the ability to stack, twist and turn at precise moments.
precious moments (http://www.preciousmoments.com/default.htm)? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

So I think of it as TWO catagories.. The speed competition(TDS/SRS), and the surviving competition(TGM).. They are no way the same game, nor can they be put head-to-head in a battle of TGM player vs. TDS player.
Except SRS vs. all else is what Mr. Rogers wants in his neighborhood:
if we're playing head to head, and you have your favorite way of playing Tetris and I have my favorite way of playing Tetris, so you'll by a Tetreon which has the feature set that you like, and I'll buy a Tetreon which has the feature set I like. And I might buy some options to adjust it, to make it play exactly the way I like. Maybe I don't like how long it takes the piece to lock down, maybe I don't like the drop speed. All those things are eventually adjustable. So I can get a Tetreon which is exactly for example the way old Game Boy Tetris was. So you could be driving your Game Boy Tetreon, I could be driving the Tetris Worlds Tetreon, and we could have a competition.

(The preceding paragraph was the direct inspiration for LOCKJAW.)

[caffeine]

"What's the big difference between a stick and a stick?"


the egronomics of it, i suspect. using your left hand's fingers to grasp a ball for up/down/left/right functions and your right hand's fingers for the rest differs from using just your left thumb, right thumb, and sometimes index fingers.


edit: speaking of. the other day, i thought out a different button config for the DS (if only tds had a button config option like street fighter). you could use the R/L triggers for right/left movement, right thumb for hard drop / hold / soft drop, and left thumb for rotate left/right. i think this would be a lot faster.

[colour_thief]

And then slowly i started to loose my gamepad skills, so now i can't even maintain the poor rank i have now on tds.


People who learn to type on a dvorak keyboard don't lose the ability to type qwerty.


I've been playing almost exclusively with a joystick for the last couple months, and I still rock at the keyboard when I go back to it. And back when I played TDS I think I lost to caffeine 10-3 and also whooped that "nintendo world champion" dude, which, while not spectacular, by no means means I can't handle a gamepad. Invert the direction of the rotations, or the hard/soft drops, I don't really care. I can swap move/rotate roles to different hands and it's no big deal. I've logged time with so many different tetris games that it doesn't really matter.


I'm not trying to say I'm awesome, I'm trying to say you never really lose what you have in any permanent sense. Or at least definitely not as quickly as you're implying. Give me 24 hours to adjust and I'll be more or less as good as I ever have at any particular version I've ever played... And I'll be adjusting to the gameplay, not the controls.

[DIGITAL]

Would it be easier to learn to defeat tetlag on a game that switches between TDS and TGM rules after each line clear?


That would be a bit drastic. I'd be confused more than anything because I'd have to constantly think of what rotation I am using.

Aren't the people who play Shirase mode in TGM3 fast too?


They're insanely fast even with the hold and preview factor in mind. Going at that speed in ARS requires crazy reflexes physically and mentally.

[sihumchai]

What's the big difference between a stick and a stick?

Well, have you tried dashing (forward forward) in games like Marvel vs. Capcom? Tapping right twice with the thumb-stick(analogue) is VERY slow.. So slow infact, that it's hard to dash(or link combos).. On the other hand, a real arcade joystick with ball, you can use your palm and the slightest tap will do. And as mentioned by Nick, you get to use most of your fingers for buttons that are soft and comfortable to press. Thumb, index, your choice.

Aren't the people who play Shirase mode in TGM3 fast too?


Mentally, they're fast. Being able to down-lock the pieces, stack, and predict the incoming pieces makes them good, but not fast(by 0 grav play). I did mention about the slight-piece delay TGM has in order to input IRS.. whereby TDS doesn't quite have it.. Thus the restriction to play fast is lost too. (correct me if I'm wrong TGM peeps, or TDS/SRS)

__________________________________________________ _


I do agree with the 'universal' Tetris.. One Tetris to unite them all? When? I have no idea, but I guess we Tetris players have to stick with our own camps for now.

[colour_thief]

The only speedometer I really judge speed with is pieces per second. If you look at that, high end TDS play is about as fast as mid range TAP play I'd say. TGM3 speeds far surpass TDS.

[sihumchai]

I think it only allows local LAN play.. I've tried it before, and maybe I've been doing it all wrong.


Sorry all, but I think my language is abit messed up http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

What I mean to say, I think DTET only works through local LAN (192.168.1.xx).. And when I said I've tried it, I meant to say, tried it with area IP's.. Without success.


Good luck! Hope to see some replays http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

[Edit] Hmm..


Isn't the universal Tetris LJ and Heboris? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just that, no online play(commercialized), LJ has only 1 player support, Heboris has two. Still not 'universal' enough http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

[Taratang]

who play Shirase mode in TGM3 fast too?

Mentally, they're fast. Being able to down-lock the pieces, stack, and predict the incoming pieces makes them good, but not fast(by 0 grav play). I did mention about the slight-piece delay TGM has in order to input IRS.. whereby TDS doesn't quite have it.. Thus the restriction to play fast is lost too. (correct me if I'm wrong TGM peeps, or TDS/SRS)

The lack of ARE in Tetris DS is made meaningless by the slow line clear and painfully slow DAS when compared to mid-range TAP and TGM3. At the highest levels the TGM series is MUCH faster.


Also, the significantly shorter lock time which doesn't reset with mere movement/rotation forces consistently fast play. While I'm sure players like caffeine could adapt quickly, most SRS players would struggle with the constant pressure to stack quickly and accurately. In the words of someone on this forum, "I thought Tetris was just Tetris until I tried TGM".

[Amnesia]

TGM players will beat TDS players. I'm not used to using a keyboard for Tetris at all, so won't stand much of a chance. I'm awful compared to TDS, unless I buy a gamepad adapter.


I'm not agree with you..I've seen a video made by caffeine on TDS and since, I've been persuaded TDS player's skill can worry TGM players..
And everybody here is enought skilled to play with keyboard, with only a little lose in power..(for exemple my best in TA D is 451 with stick and 430 with keyboard..)

yeah i'm bad on VS !

so surely :

1)caffeine
2)...
3)...
..
...
200) jago

Like every day, Jagorochi is modest http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif , maybe you are desagree with me Jago but it's thanks to "battle" I've improved my skill during 2 years..(2002 to 2004)
To make a Battle (even against a medium player (S1)..) require a lot of concentration, skill, and speed..


let's not confuse "tgm players" with "players who want to play tgm but can't." if you're not playing in an arcade with a stick and all, you're likely not really a tgm player. from what i've heard, playing with a stick is a whole nother experience. not that i'm saying you shouldn't be playing with a keyboard-- the keyboard's awesome for tetris.


I think I will created myself some enemies, but joystick don't bring a lot of new abilities..I'm sure we can't become a "Master" with a good pad..

It's right joystick is a little superior than paddle, but I especially play with joystick for the style and not for improve my ability..

[sihumchai]

Just to clear something up:


As I said, TDS/SRS style Tetris is meant for playing fast(IMO). 20G is meaningless when you can infinite-spin.. With that said, even if there ISN'T infinite spin, SRS will allow your to 'throw' pieces over obstacles which couldn't be done in TGM.


And when I say TGM players, I assume you guys know that we* only practice on 20G. *I don't know about all of you, but I do.


To set a SRS players vs. a TGM player at 0 grav (which their own rules), SRS players would pwn in speed, TGM has to downlock after a sonic-drop, slight ARE/DAS would make pieces spawn slower compared to our SRS counterpart.


But, if you were to put a SRS player 0 grav vs. a TGM player at 20G.. Then I'd say it would be pretty much even http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[Taratang]

So if you play both games at their slowest speed, TDS would be faster? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[caffeine]

"To make a Battle (even against a medium player (S1)..) require a lot of concentration, skill, and speed.."


This is very true. I think a lot of Tetris players don't realize how VS mode can push a player to work harder. In a typing program I'm using, one of the things it does is pits you against a CPU player in a match of speed and accuracy. Initially I thought, "this is retarded!" But when I started trying to beat the CPU, I found myself trying harder to win, and I improved my preformance. It's even better when you add the human/community element. Look at tnet and quadra. Nobody plays by themselves on these games, yet they produced 3tps+ players long before TGM did.


In short, whenever I play by myself (which is often nowadays), I consider it practice for when I do get to play someone else.

[colour_thief]

And when I say TGM players, I assume you guys know that we* only practice on 20G. *I don't know about all of you, but I do.


Even in TGM1 there are important "0G" time attack techniques. In TAP, zangi moves only truly exist below 20G. I wouldn't underestimate TGM players' skill in 0G. Master Mode requires you to perfect both playstyles.


Currently I don't really practice 20G. Sure that's what I'm playing when I play Death, but I could survive in 20G indefinitely. What I'm practicing is the crazy-short locktime of 400+ Death. And when I'm sated with that, I'm going to move to Master Mode and practice my 0G techniques. I actually need a lot of practice here, as it's quite different from TGM1 and it takes much more joystick skill.

[Amnesia]

I could survive in 20G indefinitely


http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif HO HO ho..Excelent colour_thief I love you.


For everybody,

What are you able to do against the CPU (in senior offcourse) ?


Me I suffer to beat him at grad 18..

25 is impossible!! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif even for a japan player..

[Amnesia]

This is very true. I think a lot of Tetris players don't realize how VS mode can push a player to work harder


Thank you caffeine..


I took a very good lesson in my face this summer..

I've been massacred (3-0 and 3-2) by a "medium" guy which had never passed lv 500 in master mode..

It was on Tetris&Dr M but that is a proof "battle" require a lot of concentration and weak or medium player have their chance against strong players.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[Needle]

There needs to be clear differentiation in referring to the native fall/lock speed (the speed the game throws at the player), minimum allowed player speed (the slowest speed the player can play at without dying), and maximum theoretical player speed (how fast a hypothetical perfect player can go, minus the waiting-times the game instates).

[K]

All my SNK favorite character will own your poor Capcom character because blablabla...

...

[cdsboy]

so is there any way for us mac users to play a DTET like game? i really like it but i have limited use of a windows box

[colour_thief]

DTET is closed source. But its rotation system is supported in the latest Heboris which has been ported to Mac using SDL I believe. That's as close are you're going to get to a DTET port.


There needs to be clear differentiation in referring to the native fall/lock speed (the speed the game throws at the player), minimum allowed player speed (the slowest speed the player can play at without dying), and maximum theoretical player speed (how fast a hypothetical perfect player can go, minus the waiting-times the game instates).


When we're talking about speed here we're talking about maximum proven speed. I don't like hypothetical speeds... It tends to encourage premature dismissal of ARE among other things. As for minimum required speeds and whatnot, those are very interesting in discussions of gameplay, challenge, and learning curves, but that is a very different discussion. We're only talking about the bottom line here.


Though if we want to degrade into a childish debate à la jago above, I'll go ahead and say that TGM3's 3 pieces/sec is superior to other games with comparable speeds because the player is actually getting mostly tetrises the whole time. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[cdsboy]

so, since i can't read japanese is there anyone here who can give me the link to the latest Heboris mac download.

[sihumchai]

For everybody,
What are you able to do against the CPU (in senior offcourse) ?

Me I suffer to beat him at grad 18..
25 is impossible!! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif even for a japan player..


I usually play more 4-Player with skill levels 16,17,18.. (because you can't set them all to the same level)..


But in vs. CPU.. I think I can manage level 16-20.. Just need to learn to keep your cool.. And also, when the CPU is doing combo's on you.. You should try to combo back to reduce garbage.

____________________________


Sorry for the uproar conversation. I enjoy a good Tetris discussion - but I'm afraid things might have gotten a little messy.. Especially on my part.

[Amnesia]

http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gifWhat are you able to do against the CPU (in senior offcourse)

Whoa! I made a mistake, I wanted say "Prince" and not senior..

[/quote]All my SNK favorite character will own your poor Capcom character because blablabla... http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif ?

[Needle]

Unfortunately the C++ ports have been stagnating for a while, and as far as I know, only the YGS-based Windows versions have DRS right now.

[tepples]

I have my doubts as to whether interpreting a 180 degree rotation differently from two 90 degree rotations is good for the game in general.


First there was 90 degree rotation in both directions. Then there was wall kick. Then SRS wall kicks that move the tetromino to a position that does not overlap the old position. Now DTET adds 180 degree rotation. As I understand it, DTET allows moves similar to this:

|          |    |          |    |          |
|     JJ   |    |          |    |          |
|     J    |    |          |    |          |
|     J    |    |          |    |          |
|          | => |     JJ   | => |          |
|XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXXJXXXX|    |XXXXXJXXXX|
|XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXXJXXXX|    |XXXXXJXXXX|
|XXXX  XXXX|    |XXXX  XXXX|    |XXXXJJXXXX|
`----------'    `----------'    `----------'

What's next? Reflection?
|          |    |          |    |          |
|    LL    |    |     JJ   |    |          |
|     L    |    |     J    |    |          |
|     L    |    |     J    |    |          |
|          | => |          | => |          |
|XXXXX  XXX|    |XXXXX  XXX|    |XXXXXJJXXX|
|XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXXJXXXX|
|XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXXJXXXX|
`----------'    `----------'    `----------'

Or how about Star Sweep style placement, where the tetromino can just move and rotate past any blocks in its way as long as it ends up in a gap?
|          |    |          |    |          |
|   ZZ     |    |      Z   |    |          |
|    ZZ    |    |     ZZ   |    |          |
|          |    |     Z    |    |          |
|  XXXXXXXX| => |  XXXXXXXX| => |  XXXXXXXX|
| XXXXXXXXX|    | XXXXXXXXX|    | XXXXXXXXX|
|XXXXXX XXX|    |XXXXXX XXX|    |XXXXXXZXXX|
|XXXXX  XXX|    |XXXXX  XXX|    |XXXXXZZXXX|
|XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXX XXXX|    |XXXXXZXXXX|
`----------'    `----------'    `----------'

[caffeine]

but i like 180. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif

[Ken_P]

but i like 180. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif


I've often thought that I would like 180, but I eventually realized that not only is it bad for the game, that it isn't even the same game anymore if you include it. Tetris is a strictly 2d game, and introducing a 180 would break away from that. Tepples second example is the one that seals it. In 3d variants it's necessary, but for a strictly 2d game, it's not possible.

[caffeine]

but why isn't it possible in 2d? it just seems arbitrary to me to say "okay, you can transfrom this tetromino into two different orientations from here, but i'm not going to let you transform it into its third orientation. for that, you'll have to first transform it into one of the first two."


i guess it would depend on your definition of tetris, but i've always seen tetris as tetrominoes + clearing rows. reflection is totally different because then you're dealing with free polyominoes-- not one-sided polyominoes. wall kicks are necessary to smooth 20g, but i really don't see these crazy "not even touching" type wallkick's really helping that much. that's kind of like the same argument for easy spin-- it's not like lack of timed locking will help a player clear x lines any faster.

[colour_thief]

The concept of 180 rotation offends me in 20g... It just isn't even remotely possible that the rotation is physically possible in some cases. In 0g I have no problem with it though.


Really though it's almost the same as rotating twice if you're fast.

[tepples]

but why isn't it possible in 2d? it just seems arbitrary to me to say "okay, you can transfrom this tetromino into two different orientations from here, but i'm not going to let you transform it into its third orientation. for that, you'll have to first transform it into one of the first two."
How about this: "ok, you can move this tetromino, but I'm not going to let you move it past this row of blocks. For that you'll have to clear out these lines first." Pipe Dream and Star Sweep allow moving the piece past other blocks and then placing it into the field with the hard drop button. It's just a generalization of wall kick.

i guess it would depend on your definition of tetris
Including Tetris Blast, Tetris Attack, and Tetrisphere? That's why I prefer to define things other than in terms of a trademark.

wall kicks are necessary to smooth 20g, but i really don't see these crazy "not even touching" type wallkick's really helping that much. that's kind of like the same argument for easy spin-- it's not like lack of timed locking will help a player clear x lines any faster.

If the goal is not to clear x lines but to clear the bottom line, then of course ridiculous wall kicks and untimed locking will help, as shown in this TDS video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkgCXXV99QU).

[colour_thief]

Pipe Dream and Star Sweep allow moving the piece past other blocks and then placing it into the field with the hard drop button. It's just a generalization of wall kick.


I think these games are pretty far from Tetris. The best example would be Egg Mania, which is a game about falling ominoes that allows what you describe. Though this game isn't very time attack friendly, and it's a feature to give the player options more than anything else.

[caffeine]

The concept of 180 rotation offends me in 20g... It just isn't even remotely possible that the rotation is physically possible in some cases. In 0g I have no problem with it though.
Why then doesn't the concept of initial rotation system offend you? Wouldn't the lack of IRS prevent a lot of moves TGM players frequently use to overcome downward orientations? Afterall, initially rotating once, then after ARE rotating again, is essentially the same thing as double rotating--same number of frames used, same end effect.
Really though it's almost the same as rotating twice if you're fast.
No matter how fast you are, you're never going to save that one frame. Sure it doesn't seem like much, but in conditions where the game allows you less than fifteen frames before locking (see shirase), even with my lightning quick reflexes and stunning good looks, I sometimes can only fit one rotation in.
How about this: "ok, you can move this tetromino, but I'm not going to let you move it past this row of blocks. For that you'll have to clear out these lines first." Pipe Dream and Star Sweep allow moving the piece past other blocks and then placing it into the field with the hard drop button. It's just a generalization of wall kick.
or how about this: "okay, you can transform this tetromino into one alternative orientation from here, but i'm not going to let you transform it into it's second or third orientations. for the second, you'll need to transform it from the first, and for the third, you'll have to do that, plus once more." lots of people are comfortable with single rotation--to them it just feels natural and right. but would you really have favored alexey and his friends not putting in that extra feature of 270 rotation as well as 90? how is 180 any different? i agree that a certain merit exists to keeping a tradition going. there's comfort in continuity, but do you see how even though we're comfortable with one thing doesn't mean that another thing is better-- or even more logical?
If the goal is not to clear x lines but to clear the bottom line, then of course ridiculous wall kicks and untimed locking will help, as shown in this TDS video.

right, and this argument relies a lot on the goal. maybe this is just my preference, but i find the the goal of clearing x lines in y time more relevant. maybe turning tetris into a frozen-in-time, turn-based puzzle game would be interesting, but everyone loves a speed run. people just can't get enough of seeing players go outrageously fast. there's something unique about pushing the limits, and i think 180 fully supports that.

[tepples]

The concept of 180 rotation offends me in 20g... It just isn't even remotely possible that the rotation is physically possible in some cases. In 0g I have no problem with it though.
Why then doesn't the concept of initial rotation system offend you? Wouldn't the lack of IRS prevent a lot of moves TGM players frequently use to overcome downward orientations?
IRS is like a mild floor kick.

Afterall, initially rotating once, then after ARE rotating again, is essentially the same thing as double rotating--same number of frames used, same end effect.
Unlike DTET's 180 key, IRS doesn't let you snap the L into that space, as I illustrated. For comparison, Lockjaw treats its 180 key as two presses of the counterclockwise key.

No matter how fast you are, you're never going to save that one frame. Sure it doesn't seem like much, but in conditions where the game allows you less than fifteen frames before locking (see shirase), even with my lightning quick reflexes and stunning good looks, I sometimes can only fit one rotation in.
That's why the game gives you two counterclockwise keys.

but would you really have favored alexey and his friends not putting in that extra feature of 270 rotation as well as 90? how is 180 any different?
Rotation behavior for 90 and 270 degrees can be made symmetric: the wall kicks for rotating an L clockwise can be the horizontal reflection of the wall kicks for rotating the J counterclockwise, and vice versa.

Besides, when Tetris came to American video game consoles, it already had both 90 and 270.

If the goal is not to clear x lines but to clear the bottom line, then of course ridiculous wall kicks and untimed locking will help, as shown in this TDS video.
right, and this argument relies a lot on the goal. maybe this is just my preference, but i find the the goal of clearing x lines in y time more relevant.
Tetris 2 and The Next Tetris disagree with you.

maybe turning tetris into a frozen-in-time, turn-based puzzle game would be interesting
And Nintendo did it all for the cookie in Tetris DS.

but everyone loves a speed run. people just can't get enough of seeing players go outrageously fast. there's something unique about pushing the limits, and i think 180 fully supports that.

Granted, and that's why I added "rotate left twice" to LJ. However, I never envisioned adding a separate wall kick table for the 180 key.

[caffeine]

IRS is like a mild floor kick.
So then my question turns into "why don't mild floor kicks offend you?"
Unlike DTET's 180 key, IRS doesn't let you snap the L into that space, as I illustrated. For comparison, Lockjaw treats its 180 key as two presses of the counterclockwise key.
180 doesn't let you do that, a wall kick does.
That's why the game gives you two counterclockwise keys.
pressing them both in the same frame makes a double rotation? i didn't know tgm had double rotation.
Rotation behavior for 90 and 270 degrees can be made symmetric: the wall kicks for rotating an L clockwise can be the horizontal reflection of the wall kicks for rotating the J counterclockwise, and vice versa.

Besides, when Tetris came to American video game consoles, it already had both 90 and 270.

Why do you keep mixing wall kicks into this? i was talking about why 180 was logical, not wall kicking. when tetris came to america, it had what? one wall kick?

[M.Bison]

Me I suffer to beat him at grad 18..
25 is impossible!! even for a japan player..


I can beat: ADVANCE/Lv 200/Grade 24 within 3 attempts


*NOTE* I only ever play with 1 life (Both me and CPU).


Grade 25 is hard but very possible to beat.


- Jono

[colour_thief]

TGM doesn't have literal double rotation.


I favour rotations that look like they are physically possible. As in, you can take the piece and rotate it, given there are no obstructions. 90 degree rotations are ok for this. The problem with 180 is it bypasses the obstruction check that would take place given 2 consecutive rotations. A double rotation like tepples has in LJ is ok in my opinion, because the obstruction check is still there and conceivably the second rotation could fail. Even then though it's inelegant... What if 2 clockwise rotations would have succeeded where counterclockwise ones would fail?


IRS is acceptable because the piece is magically teleporting into the well, not moving continuously.


And I'm not convinced double rotation is saving you time, as long as you don't have to push the same button twice (ie. A,C instead of A,A in TGM). If you're having trouble then your timing needs work. (I know mine does! But on a good day I can consistently nail double rotations in Death. Feels so good.)


I've got a gameplay idea for double rotations that I think is a really good compromise between our viewpoints though. Wait for CTRS. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

[Needle]

IMO wallkicks cannot be discussed separate from rotation when talking about 20G AND "non-bottom-flat" rotation systems together.


As can be seen here (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/TGM_rotation), the Sega/TGM rules are made so that the altitude of the bottom surface never changes regardless of orientation (excluding the I). On the other hand, rotation rules which doesn't do that - ie. SRS (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/SRS) - have varying bottom altitudes for each orientation stance. This means that while TGM pieces can almost always rotate without kicking the floor, non-bottom-flat rules will require frequent intervention from floorkicks to even rotate at all when touching a surface.


Also, the orientation of the piece in relation to the shape of the terrain at every given moment is a very vital element in TGM - so much that the claim that "initially rotating once, then after ARE rotating again, is essentially the same thing as double rotating" makes no sense in practice.


TGM only counts either of the A or C buttons for counterclockwise rotation per frame.

[colour_thief]

Also, the orientation of the piece in relation to the shape of the terrain at every given moment is a very vital element in TGM - so much that the claim that "initially rotating once, then after ARE rotating again, is essentially the same thing as double rotating" makes no sense in practice.


To be fair, high speed Death and Shirase make very frequent use of double rotation with 0 or 1 sideways movements. Almost all placements are:


DAS all the way.

DAS all the way and return once.

Stay in the middle.

Move 1 space away from the middle.


While there are more advanced options depending on the context, those are the basics which are used most often because they are reliable. The last 2 are what I was referring to above, and they frequently have a second rotation after ARE without any terrain-related complications.

[tepples]

IRS is like a mild floor kick.
So then my question turns into "why don't mild floor kicks offend you?"
They don't, unless they're applied repeatedly ("I'm ridin' spinners, they don't stop"). They came to my attention when Nachanca, one of the CPU opponents in The New Tetris for Nintendo 64, used them to keep the tetromino from locking, keep the garbage from arriving, and keep me from winning.

Unlike DTET's 180 key, IRS doesn't let you snap the L into that space, as I illustrated. For comparison, Lockjaw treats its 180 key as two presses of the counterclockwise key.
180 doesn't let you do that, a wall kick does.
[...]
Why do you keep mixing wall kicks into this?

Because they're pretty much the only difference between what LJ does and what DTET does.


CT: If you describe your experimental rotation system in detail on the wiki, it's likely to get into LJ.

[Taratang]

Afterall, initially rotating once, then after ARE rotating again, is essentially the same thing as double rotating--same number of frames used, same end effect.Sorry, but this is completely false. There is no way for a piece to spawn already rotated twice and once the piece has spawned the second rotation will fail if its surrounding don't allow it. You can't rotate twice in the same frame in TGM.

[caffeine]

Sorry, but this is completely false. There is no way for a piece to spawn already rotated twice and once the piece has spawned the second rotation will fail if its surrounding don't allow it. You can't rotate twice in the same frame in TGM.

i wasn't saying there was a way to make the piece spawn twice, and when i said that, i was pretty much talking about sub 20g conditions, or 20g conditions where terrain would not obstruct. you and colour brought up how the surroundings would prevent that second rotation. this is what i was trying to talk about earlier by saying that many of those same conditions would fail for the first rotation as well if it wasn't for IRS. so why isn't IRS just as bad as double rotation? and don't say wall kicks!

[colour_thief]

I answered that above. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

IRS is acceptable because the piece is magically teleporting into the well, not moving continuously.


If it makes you feel any better, I think Hold should only be allowed as part of IHS for the same reasons.

[caffeine]

so then it would stand to reason that double rotation should be included so long as it's only initially double rotated?

[colour_thief]

Yeah, basically. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif It'd be interesting to play with A+C giving double rotation with IRS. It wouldn't feel like classic TGM but it wouldn't feel wrong either.


Coping with the initial stances has to be a deliberate part of TGM's gameplay... Arika's Tetris with Card Captor Sakura allowed you to rotate twice during ARE, and yet later Arika Tetris games don't. Even though I'm used to it and it's rarely an issue any more, I don't think anyone would miss it. I don't see it changing the gameplay much overall.

[mat]

(do we really need two separate dtet threads?)


A+C giving double rotate IRS would be very interesting--or i could see the actual implementation being A clock, B c-clock, C double--but only during IRS with C going back to c-clock as soon is the piece is in play. this solves the clunky double tap IRS problem of sakura and would prevent the inevitable accidental single rotates that would show up when required to hit both keys.


although whether or not this significantly alters the TGM gameplay is still up for debate. i'd say that it very well could have been included in Ti and no one would have complained--in fact aren't you able to select the double tap IRS in Ti? or am i making that up? at any rate, that breaks the "TGM elegance" where a single press of C functioning as a double rotate would not (or A+C, i'm sure someone would argue that the inconsistent nature of that suggestion would itself break that elegance)


the whole limitation of 20g which is present in the original ARS (read: TGM1/TAP) as far as initial stances are concerned has already been as good as eliminated with the Ti wallkicks--specifically the T kick. are there any (hmm, don't really know what to call these--well traps? that's good)--are there any well traps left that would be significantly eased or even altered with the induction of a double rotate capable IRS? i think not. so all it would really do is prevent the inelegance that is the T-trap circumvention as well as making those moves more possible at shirase speeds. yes?


so i'm in favor of it. but NOT after IRS---because inevitably we would have to start reworking the wallkicks to allow moves like that sham of an L that everyone keeps illustrating from dtet. because otherwise we'd have to have 2 double rotates as ct mentioned, for each direction. and that would be the realm of theoretical LJ type of games--not arika sequels and clones, or as i refer to them, "real" games http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif.

[colour_thief]

are there any well traps left that would be significantly eased or even altered with the induction of a double rotate capable IRS?


A few moves would definitely be easier: Namely L, J , and T pieces travelling over 2 space wide gaps. Double rotate IRS would make this much more viable at high speeds, which would change the game a bit.


In general though, even though it would change the dynamic of the game a little, I think it's still more elegant than the crazy nonsense wallkicks that DRS and SRS introduced. (Yeah, I know nobody uses T-spin triples anyways in a time attack but they're still inelegant.)

[mat]

right, exactly, it would make them easier, but they are still possible with the Ti rotations, so all you are doing is making them smoother--as compared to making them possible in the first place which is where the real disputes about "breaking" of the game are to be had. the Ti moves are already considered acceptable so making them more elegant does nothing more than make them more elegant.

[colour_thief]

What about synchro moves though? They are technically possible, but extremely difficult. If you could use them reliably it would break 20g. Doubled IRS wouldn't be so dramatic, but you must admit part of the appeal of 20g is that your moves are restricted which forces you to be extra clever and use the options you do have resourcefully.


It's hard to say how things would be affected... But I guess if the I wallkicks (which open a lot of possibilities) went down well this might as well.

[mat]

i just realized that LJ has this functionality available... i mean, not the inconsistent function of the C but you can use C as a double rotate during IRS--now if only it had decent ARE options...

[Amnesia]

http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_mad.gif
WARNING for people like me who was fallen in love with DTET..

The recovery on TGM2 is..HARD.

DTET is too much permissive and lustful...

I would have listened matt..

Now I must remove the very bad reflex I've accumulate with DTET..


For example, play with 3 next tetriminos at DTET makes the brain addicted of 3 tetriminos..

Play just after at tgm2 with only one tetriminos in next is hard..

[tepples]

Now I must remove the very bad reflex I've accumulate with DTET..
The tetlag (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2175&highlight=tetlag#2175), right?

For example, play with 3 next tetriminos at DTET makes the brain addicted of 3 tetriminos..
Play just after at tgm2 with only one tetriminos in next is hard..

Just be glad it's not NYET III that has no next tetromino and no wall kick and no lock delay.

[colour_thief]

Now I must remove the very bad reflex I've accumulate with DTET..
The tetlag (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2175&highlight=tetlag#2175), right?


What a great word. People should adopt it into common usage. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[Amnesia]

HEEUU...

I'm not very sure to understand..(I still must improve my english.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif )

"tetlag" : means the "delay of adaptation"?

[kotetsu213]

tetlag = tetris + jetlag


jetlag = desynchronized sleep pattern from flying on a jet (or something like that)

[colour_thief]

It's a play on words, based on the word jetlag.


http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:Jetlag&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define_3AJetlag&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)


Travelling from one place to another.

vs

Changing from one tetris game to another.

[Amnesia]

Yes I was sure..

In fact I've learned the word "jetlag" there is 2 weeks ago.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

I think to try a maximum number of tetris is very good for everybody..

I can get 80% of my ability with 15min of gaming with all tetris..

And 3 hours to be 100% operational..


In fact my problem with recover on tgm2 was not very long.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[B.G.]

Sorry, too long Japanese writing about DTET Rotation System.



> ?????????
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(1) ?????????????????????????1????????
(2) ??????????????????1????????
(3) ??????????????????1????????
(4) ?????????????????????????
(5) ?????????????????????????
???????
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?????????????????????????

? ????????????????
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????????????????

? ????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????
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http://dtet.web.infoseek.co.jp/dtet/tech.htm
??????×4???????????????????????

? 180????????????????????????
???????5?????????




Eng"r"ish translation


@ A case of anticlockwise


1. If cannot rotate, move one space to the left.

2. If cannot, move one space to the right.

3. If cannot, move one space to the down.

4. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the left.

5. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the right.


@ A case of clockwise


1. If cannot rotate, move one space to the right.

2. If cannot, move one space to the left.

3. If cannot, move one space to the down.

4. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the right.

5. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the left.



If push anticlockwise button while pushing clockwise button, clockwize-like anticlockwise rotate.

If push clockwise button while pushing anticlockwise button, anticlockwize-like clockwise rotate.



This system works flip rotate too.

[Rosti LFC]

What's with the DTET videos?


Some are pretty awful, yet some are almost superhuman.

[Pineapple]

Sorry, too long Japanese writing about DTET Rotation System.

Eng"r"ish translation

@ A case of anticlockwise
1. If cannot rotate, move one space to the left.
2. If cannot, move one space to the right.
3. If cannot, move one space to the down.
4. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the left.
5. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the right.

@ A case of clockwise
1. If cannot rotate, move one space to the right.
2. If cannot, move one space to the left.
3. If cannot, move one space to the down.
4. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the right.
5. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the left.

If push anticlockwise button while pushing clockwise button, clockwize-like anticlockwise rotate.
If push clockwise button while pushing anticlockwise button, anticlockwize-like clockwise rotate.

This system works flip rotate too.

Wikified.

[colour_thief]

Sorry, too long Japanese writing about DTET Rotation System.

Eng"r"ish translation

@ A case of anticlockwise
1. If cannot rotate, move one space to the left.
2. If cannot, move one space to the right.
3. If cannot, move one space to the down.
4. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the left.
5. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the right.

@ A case of clockwise
1. If cannot rotate, move one space to the right.
2. If cannot, move one space to the left.
3. If cannot, move one space to the down.
4. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the right.
5. If cannot, move one space to the down & move one space to the left.

If push anticlockwise button while pushing clockwise button, clockwize-like anticlockwise rotate.
If push clockwise button while pushing anticlockwise button, anticlockwize-like clockwise rotate.

This system works flip rotate too.
Wikified.


Keep in mind there is a bit more to DTET... It has a somewhat sophisticated ARE-cancelling system I don't quite understand.