Does The Tetris Company Ignore its Hardcore Community?

[caffeine]

TTC's neglect of its hardcore gamers results in a lack of gameplay depth and fairness, and as a result TTC's main costumer target (casual players), while currently compliant, are missing out on the high standards we have come to love—a side of Tetris many will unfortunately never have the chance to enjoy and appreciate.

I got the idea to bring this up after I read David Sirlin's handout at this year's Game Developers Conference (http://www.sirlin.net/storage/articles/balance/GDC%202009%20sirlin%20handout6.pdf).

The bulk of it does not apply here. However, even though it is meant for multiplayer games, it applies to Tetris since Tetris is not some story game that you finish and never play again. Players compete against other players through high scores and record times. Not to mention, Tetris does in fact support multiplayer.

http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../sirlin.jpg

(This thread's title in picture form.)

To side step a little, I fully agree with TTC's aim to standardize Tetris. While some of these standards are great and reduce “tetlag” from game to game, some developing traditions are hurting Tetris' gameplay. Two things Sirlin talks about that apply here are fairness and depth.

Standards that hurt fairness

Different piece sequences / garbage sequences

They are luck factors that only detract from competitive Tetris. EA's mobile Tetris game gives out identical sequences for both of these, and it functions great. You can eliminate "peeking" at garbage by only showing solid garbage rows in the opponent's play area. Uneven garbage distribution (the targetting system)

In three-way games or greater, the targetting system will result in a different amount of garbage to each opponent. Nintendo may have instituted this tradition in Tetris DS as a way to make games last longer. An easy way to do this while still having all opponents receive the same amount of garbage, seen in Tetris Evolution, is: the more the players, the less the garbage sent (say two garbage for a Tetris with six players, then slowly after only two players are left, it goes back to four garbage for a Tetris).

"Garbage canceling" is a veiled form of uneven garbage distribution in three way games or more. This is because if a player happens to cancel incoming garbage, he'll receive less than his opponents. You may argue that this feature adds to depth. But really, there's about as much depth in waiting for your opponent to strike first as there is in watching grass grow while waiting in traffic.
Standards that hurt depth

Broken Marathon

TTC refuses to fix this. Dumb. 'Nuff said. Lack of forced speed

A great way to add complexity is to simply kill the player. TTC forgets that Tetris players are masochistic and loved to be punished. Overly gratuitous lock delay resetting makes forced speed impossible. Weighing T-Spins more than Tetrises

Equal weight (points or garbage per line) will result in more diverse and spontaneous gameplay opposed to ST stacking being the dominant strategy. Seesaw garbage

Random garbage is more difficult and offers more opportunity for a player to develop skill. Random garbage also punishes the opponent more for riskier clears as opposed to the all-too-frequent dialog, "Alright, I made a Tetris at the very top. That felt awesome!" "You just gave me a free Tetris out of garbage that I'll swiftly seesaw back. You lose!" Not to mention, drilling down random garbage happens to be pretty addicting. Dulled speed

Speed by far is the most natural way to increase the complexity of Tetris. Maybe TTC thinks slow, non customizable autorepeat, "delayed auto repeat" (DAS), line clear delay, etc are good ways to make Tetris spectator friendly. If so, they must have missed out on the Youtube phenomenon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC544Z37qo) that has earned over 2.5 million views in the last year. By sacrificing speed, TTC is sacrificing something that garners unending complexity and as a result players eventually will no longer get that "in the zone" feeling when they play since the game's pace will eventually go below their abilities. This "in the zone" feeling is the whole reason I play this game. I love that that feeling. Please stop trying to take it away.Why do players flee to clones even now when we can play authentic Tetris for free? The answer is plain if you ask me.

P.S. Oh, hello there TTC lurkers. I was hoping to get your attention. Please take this as constructive criticism rather than "meh, TTC haters hatin again." I really do hope this helps you guys.

[Rosti LFC]

I don't necessarily dislike some of the things that ignore fairness. If anything I say things like targetting promote a different kind of fairness by placing an extra handicap on the higher player. Same with the alteration of how random the garbage is depending on rating difference. Yes, it means that players who perhaps shouldn't have beaten me will occasionally beat me, but it means that games which would otherwise have been easy and boring are more challenging and therefore enjoyable. These things also don't appear in games where the opponents are closely matched, such as matches between elite players.

I think TTC is primarily guilty of ignoring the hardcore community and to a large extent the casual community with its single player modes and the fact that they're just too easy. The single player modes can be completed by players who really don't have any real skill with the game. Then the score-attack aspect is somewhat ruined by the fact that the scoring is so ridiculously convoluted and gimmicky. I would say this could be the case merely because the developers have realised that the mode is easy enough for a reasonable number of people to all-Tetris clear it.


It does irritate me though to see that TTC have this idea of making tournaments for Tetris and yet still aren't producing the games that they need to for this to happen. If they want Tetris to be regarded far more as a competitive game, which they can use to hold tournaments that produce highly competitive play which is genuinely impressive to beginners, then they need to make a came that can produce such gameplay. If TGM3 was some sort of home PC game or something I'm sure that this video alone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwC544Z37qo) would have provided a shitload of sales. It has 2.7 million views, is the #97 most favourited video of all time on YouTube, and the #68 top rated. Which is a damn impressive statistic for a video. I'd like to know from Zemus what proportion of those views are from a non-Japan market, because I'd bet it's a reasonable number of people. I think it's easily enough people to make a significant sales impact.
And why is the video so popular? It's because the gameplay is damn impressive. People who have never played a game of Tetris in their life can see that the performance there takes an immense amount of skill. It's an enthralling thing to watch. People will link it to other people and word spreads. This being word of a game that most people won't have ever heard of before, and won't be able to play unless they live in Japan or are stupidly wealthy.
Compare that to any Tetris DS video. The highest number of views for a gamplay video is under 100,000. And it's not even conventional gameplay, it's the crazy I-spin video. And it's been on YouTube twice as long. The view counts are so low because Tetris DS gameplay just can't be impressive. Maybe people who play it quite a lot can appreciate the skill that the top players have, but to your average casual gamer it just doesn't look that special. That's because the game lacks both difficulty and the ability to generate impressive, high-level gameplay. I could have a marathon run of perfect ST stacking, and get the highest score that is reasonably possible for non-endless marathon. And that run would be both slow as hell and reasonably unimpressive to anyone not familiar with the game. They'd probably wonder why the hell I was stacking like I was.

They need to cater to the hard-core community, which they currently aren't doing, because it's only way for them to create a game which can be seen by people as being more than "just Tetris". There are games like Guitar Hero where they are both extremely popular but also have high enough levels of difficulty for the elite players to be known to be extremely skilled. At the moment Tetris just doesn't have that, and it won't until they start making it harder and they start making it faster.

[m:)]

I agree with your post. After getting back into tetris recently it was quite a joy to play again.
then i started finding better and better games to play. i didn't even realize tetris could be better until I found tc.
wow, it really does get much much better!!

my question is why is the marathon broken?
Do you mean with the funny line countdowns like on tetris friends (tetris party isn't like that) or just the mechanics you summed up in your post?

[Rosti LFC]

my question is why is the marathon broken?
Do you mean with the funny line countdowns like on tetris friends (tetris party isn't like that) or just the mechanics you summed up in your post?

The speed doesn't increase past a point that's challenging for good players. It requires too little skill to beat, and really the only difficulty is the slow sideways movement.
The completely mental scoring also doesn't help. It's too arbitrarily complicated.

[caffeine]

"my question is why is the marathon broken?" I was referring to Marathon mode in Tetris Friends (among other games) where optimal strategy calls for really silly playing. Just watch top player's replays in Marathon (http://www.tetrisfriends.com/leaderboard/index.php) to see what I mean.

I don't necessarily dislike some of the things that ignore fairness. If anything I say things like targetting promote a different kind of fairness by placing an extra handicap on the higher player. Same with the alteration of how random the garbage is depending on rating difference. Yes, it means that players who perhaps shouldn't have beaten me will occasionally beat me, but it means that games which would otherwise have been easy and boring are more challenging and therefore enjoyable. These things also don't appear in games where the opponents are closely matched, such as matches between elite players.
I'm glad you brought this up. It's very true that it is boring to compete against players that are much more highly skilled or less skilled. That is why more and more competitive games are featuring rating-tracking plus skill-based match making (Halo 3, Warcraft 3, Starcraft 2, EA's Mobile Tetris, Tetris DS to an extent). When I played Warcraft 3, my win ratio was always very close to 50%! This system works great and eliminates the need to handicap.

[m:)]

"my question is why is the marathon broken?" I was referring to Marathon mode in Tetris Friends (among other games) where optimal strategy calls for really silly playing. Just watch top player's replays in Marathon (http://www.tetrisfriends.com/leaderboard/index.php) to see what I mean.

that is what i thought and it is down right silly. the tricky part is watching the lines so you know when to set up your back to back to occur with one line left for the level.

it seems like it rewards you for playing poorly.

[colour_thief]

I voted yes, but I want to add that they've tried to cater to the hardcore with the likes of Tetris Zone. Though I'd argue they missed the mark with that game by quite a bit, making something without strong appeal to any market.

[Corrosive]

Big C says:

fuck TTC.

[EnFuego]

It surprises me to see sometimes how the majority of people (that I know atleast) cannot even pass marathon mode. Out of everyone who has played tetris the "hardcore" community is so relatively small. The casual player who plays tetris on their phone once a week who doesn't care about half the stuff talked about on tetrisconcept is the target group. It is too easy for the hardcore community to be washed in with the casual community. The problem with a game like TGM3 is that many gamers are turned away by the intimidation factor that comes along with the game. I probably would not be on these forums if I thought I sucked at tetris from the start

[jujube]

some things i don't like about TTC single player:

7-piece bag. this opens up the door for too much abuse (see ST Stacking (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/ST_Stacking) and Playing Forever (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/Playing_forever)).

long delays. the line clear delay and auto-shift rate are too slow. it's just no fun to sit around and wait.

hold box. do you really need it? no. it just makes things easier. you can keep an I in hold and tetris whenever it's convenient for you. there are plenty of stacking and skimming techniques to learn, but you don't need to know any of that if you know how to hold.

move-reset lock delay. you'll never learn to place pieces in an efficient way if you don't have to. you can push yourself to go faster, but modes with instant gravity either aren't timed or your time doesn't matter.

move-reset gives you too much time to think and avoid making mistakes. tetris is about making mistakes! the more you play, the more you learn about how to fix them. getting yourself out of a jam can be very gratifying.

you win. the instant when you beat a mode is the instant when you start getting bored with it. this doesn't apply to all modes of course (time attack and ultra for example). tetrisfriends survival is the only one that gives ever-increasing challenge, and there should be more like it. the challenge needs to increase to the point where you can't take it anymore. it doesn't necessarily need to be invisible in the later stages of the game, but there has to be some element that makes it harder the further you go.

[PetitPrince]

Three very good points I noted:

It does irritate me though to see that TTC have this idea of making tournaments for Tetris and yet still aren't producing the games that they need to for this to happen
Very true. Henk Rogers once said in an interview (Nintendo World Report, 2006 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=11267)) that he had a "Tetris Olympics" dream with semi-standardized rule - he used the analogy of a car using different parts. What's holding them to make a real competitive game ? I don't say they don't trying at all (TDS had rating [before it became completely broken], Tetrsfriends has leaderboard & replay, Tetrisparty has some sort of prized tournament [ ? I don't actually have it]), but they don't try enough.
It may eventually turn into WRC vs F1 vs Daytona, but a real, advertised competition Tetris would be really cool. Nadeo made Trackmania Nations, a free (!) competitive version of Trackmania for the ESWC 2006. So far, it has done great. It's a regular of th ESWC (where other racing title, such as Gran Turismo, hasn't reached its lifetime) and last year it joined the ESL Major Series.
And don't bring in the money argument: Nadeo is a ridiculously small team (and still is - under 10 peoples) and began by developping the sequel of a sailing game (Virtual Skipper 3 - in fact, Trackmania shares its 3D engine).

The casual player who plays tetris on their phone once a week who doesn't care about half the stuff talked about on tetrisconcept is the target group. It is too easy for the hardcore community to be washed in with the casual community.
Sadly true. But don't underestimate the dedication of some so-called "casual" gamers. I never expected my girlfriend - not that much gamer, she do enjoy to play video games in general though - to play and even like Shirase and Death... and yet, I have yet to beat her (well, I still got my Gm that she don't have °^_^).
I don't think those "hardcore casual" are a large fraction of the "casual" group, but I do think it's a significant one.

The problem with a game like TGM3 is that many gamers are turned away by the intimidation factor that comes along with the game.
Yes, but only if you show them Jin8 or even ct best performance. I'm convinced that a good explanatory video will lure some players into TGM. EvilDaedalus "How to play the <classname>" series for Team Fortress 2 achieved quite a respectable amount of views in youtube (about 500k in average), perhaps we should make one too...

[Kasumi]

Jujube: I don't agree that once you beat a mode, you become bored with it. People here still play Master mode in any of the three grandmaster games, even though they've gotten to the end. The grading system is what makes us continue to try to do better. Arguably TTC has a similar concept in place with the score. Even if they've got to the end, the theory is they'll still play for a better score.

As far as the seven piece bag and hold are concerned, I think it should be one or the other, but not both.

As for The Tetris Company ignoring it's hardcore community, of course they are. I feel there are an extremely small number of us, even compared to the hardcore communities of other games. The percentage of people hardcore players is nothing compared to the people that play Tetris casually. PetitPrince certainly makes a good point, that some of those casual gamers might like and play it more if it was harder, but what TTC is doing is working, and making them money. The only people I've ever seen complain about anything are the members here. (Except about infinite spin, which is a laughably bad idea by a greater number of people's standards.) I think what TTC needs to realize if they have NOTHING to lose by making more challenging games. The people that play Tetris casually on their mobile phones won't even know the difference, or might actually *gasp* LIKE it. And the members here will appreciate them much more, and they'll stand to make more money from people that enjoy challenging games. I find guideline Tetris completely boring. I would not even be playing Tetris now if it wasn't for that invisible Tetris video, and the hombrew NDS_TGM that that video made me find. The Tetris company is not going to get any of my money until the guideline changes, because I only like TGM style Tetris.

As a small aside, I agree TGM is intimidating. Most people I show it to get pretty scared without some explanation.

Edit: Said the wrong guy made a point.

[muf]

I find guideline Tetris completely boring. I would not even be playing Tetris now if it wasn't for that invisible Tetris video, and the hombrew NDS_TGM that that video made me find.
Before I played Tetris DS, I utterly hated Tetris, because all the versions I'd played (NES Tetris and a bunch of clones) used archaic rulesets that included a memoryless randomiser and a "sticky stack" that pieces lock to as soon as they touch it. It was only after clearing Marathon mode completely (and thus playing through the fair amount of 20G) I started looking for alternatives, as I found out that even high speed Tetris is very playable, I just wanted to get rid of this "infinite spin" thing that was making it trivial even for my friends to clear it. So in that sense, if it weren't for the guideline, I probably wouldn't have found TGM. Hmm. I'd probably be $1600 richer if I hadn't found TGM http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[Rosti LFC]

Nadeo made Trackmania Nations
And it would be an extremely good game if it weren't for the cumulative rating system, which really pisses me off.


Jujube: I don't agree that once you beat a mode, you become bored with it. People here still play Master mode in any of the three grandmaster games, even though they've gotten to the end. The grading system is what makes us continue to try to do better.
The grading system is what makes it so that you haven't beaten it. I wouldn't say by any means that reaching level 999 was beating a game. It's reaching Gm that is beating it.

The thing is though, I think there should at least be a single, final, point to aim for. You should be able to beat certain modes. It shouldn't be down to the player to generate their own challenge of beating their own time or score, there should at least be a final grade to aim at where people can say they've beaten the mode. It's just that this final grade should be a lot harder than any of the western games seem to be. Clearing Marathon in Tetris DS is hardly a notable accomplishment.


On the intimidation factor of extremely hard games, I think there is an issue there. But that doesn't mean that they can't put hard modes in there. What would stop them putting in a mode similar to the TGM Master or Death/Shirase modes as well as the existing ones? Even TGM3 has Easy mode, and it's an arcade game.

[jujube]

Clearing Marathon in Tetris DS is hardly a notable accomplishment.
you could be a world record holder (http://gamers.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/210808_tetris_ds.aspx). you just have to do it in under 18 hours, 10 minutes, and 22 seconds.

As far as the seven piece bag and hold are concerned, I think it should be one or the other, but not both.
that would be a fair compromise, but i still believe it would be perfectly playable with neither. the old school games have a memoryless randomizer and no hold, and a good number of people can play until they reach their physical limits. and yes i'm using "play" in the present tense http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif

[caffeine]

I feel there are an extremely small number of us, even compared to the hardcore communities of other games. The percentage of people hardcore players is nothing compared to the people that play Tetris casually.

This is a common mistake many people make. Tetris, just like any other game, follows a nice statistical bell curve of skill. Why some people think this bell curve of skill would magically turn into a declining hill that starts high at the left and falls sharply to the right--I don't know. If you've played Tetris DS online or EA's online multiplayer Tetris game, you'd see what I mean. There are plenty of hardcore gamers... just maybe not vocal hardcore gamers.

[colour_thief]

As much as I respect Sirlin, and as much as I wish more games were designed with the ideals he describes in mind, I don't actually buy what he's saying. Which is to say, I don't believe fundamentally designing around the hardcore and then making the game accessible to new players is the best way to run a business. Yes, I think that makes the best games. No, I don't think that's where the money is.

I think a central issue to all of this is that Tetris means different things to different people. Tetris isn't even a game to a lot of people, as in they are not heavily invested in the outcome when they play. It's just sort of a time waster. Like those people who buy those cheap books of 1000 extemely simple sudoku puzzles. Sure they know it could get challenging with a different source of puzzles, but that's not what they're in it for. And they don't hear that sudoku is deep and then get into it casually. They hear from some friends that it's fun and maybe a little addictive. Presumeably like how Facebook is spreading Tetris now.

I think TTC/THC/BPS/WTF is making sound business decisions, and there isn't a compelling reason for them to start paying attention to us. If anything, they were waaay ahead of their time by trying to target everyone, something that is proving ludicrously profitable for Nintendo right now. It all boils down to numbers, and Arika certainly isn't getting rich of it's approach to Tetris.

[Rosti LFC]

I feel there are an extremely small number of us, even compared to the hardcore communities of other games. The percentage of people hardcore players is nothing compared to the people that play Tetris casually.

This is a common mistake many people make. Tetris, just like any other game, follows a nice statistical bell curve of skill. Why some people think this bell curve of skill would magically turn into a declining hill that starts high at the left and falls sharply to the right--I don't know. If you've played Tetris DS online or EA's online multiplayer Tetris game, you'd see what I mean. There are plenty of hardcore gamers... just maybe not vocal hardcore gamers.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the number of people on the Tetris DS leaderboards who were rated over 7000 (and would therefore be players I would class to be quite skilled) were easily numbering in the thousands.

[muf]

It all boils down to numbers, and Arika certainly isn't getting rich of it's approach to Tetris.
And you don't think that maybe even just a small part of that is down to the fact that their games are only available in Japan? I doubt Killzone would have made Guerrilla Games a lot of money if it was only available in The Netherlands.

[colour_thief]

It all boils down to numbers, and Arika certainly isn't getting rich of it's approach to Tetris.
And you don't think that maybe even just a small part of that is down to the fact that their games are only available in Japan? I doubt Killzone would have made Guerrilla Games a lot of money if it was only available in The Netherlands.

After paying for a worldwide license? I don't think they'd do especially well, even with a console or PC release. Certainly much worse than, say, legitimately terrible games like ipod tetris.

I really hope I'm wrong but that's what I think.

[m:)]

i wish there was no "casual" and no "hardcore" i honestly think these are marketing ploys.

[rednefed]

I agree with CT. The learning curve of TGM is rather steep. A beginner player might make it past the first two sections, taking 5-6 minutes to get there, die when the gravity hits 1G, and never see 70% of the game. The easier modes (TA Normal/Ti Easy) don't really change much of that, and don't have much depth until you get hardcore. TGM needs something to hook the casual gamers, and imo neither Arika nor TTC have really found it yet.

Edit: grammar

[colour_thief]

<caffeine> ct. i can't believe you publically commended ttc's game design and marketing strategy while simultaneously downplaying the role of the hardcore community. that's over 9000 LAME.

We're a small group, and we're extremely fickle. You can even subdivide us with rotation system, randomizer, 20G/0G, single player/versus, t-spins/no t-spins, etc etc. There's no one true hardcore tetris in all this. Even making everything customisable won't satisfying everyone because different choices will make quite objectively unfair versus matches and leaderboard comparisons. We're a hard market to please (see Tetris Zone) and we're small enough that when you do hit it the reward is underwhelming.

I'm not commending the game design. We can all agree that the guideline includes some frustratingly lame design decisions. I'm saying they have made poor games and excellent business decisions. I don't see how this is news to anyone as Tetris has been quite lucrative. Are you guys honestly saying sales would increase noticeably if the hardcore were happy?

Catering to the hardcore like Arika does is simply not something that is greatly profitable. It works because Mihara is hardcore (and by satisfying himself he can satisfy the fickle hardcore market) and Arika is sustained mostly by other game development (so the profitability is not critical). Also they've got to do it out of love because you can be damn sure they have lower profit margins on it than they do for a random anime license game.

[Kitaru]

I think it is worth mentioning that -- in some cases -- it isn't even remotely difficult to make decisions that are fair to both the casual and hardcore. One semi-recent and majorly baffling development was the the decision that Initial Rotation and Initial Hold somehow were not consistent with the guideline and needed to be removed. Their removal killed some simple optimizations for players of intermediate level and above while doing no greater service to new players. I'd be shocked if even one player found that the game was more comfortable to play after they removed on account of unexpected behavior when they were included. The only thing I can even imagine they were thinking was that they were somehow simplifying things for new players by making this change since they wouldn't necessarily know about them going in, but I don't imagine that new players have a particularly deep understanding of things like autorepeat or hold on their first play either. (I suppose hold is just the panic button when you first start using it anyhow. *shrug*) Anyway, I still find this change unfathomable and would love it if someone could rationalize it for me.

(Also, I just wanted to say that I really wish they could make up their mind about kick t-spins. It makes it really hard to explain to people one simple, concrete definition of what a t-spin is when it seems to change slightly with every release. "Well it is this, unless you are playing game x, y, or z, in which case it is that except with this exception, or if you are playing game q, which has just an exception for triples..." Worse yet, they currently have changed their minds _within_ a release by allowing kick t-spins on tetrisfriends.com and not on Facebook.)

[orz]

ttc changing things for the better is a pipedream

what we need is a fan-game on par with what stepmania is to ddr simulation, that is to say:
-slick graphics engine
-robust theme system
-easily modifiable gametypes

among other things but i don't really feel like typing or detailing anything

[Xkeeper]

Seriously, path to success:

- Include Master and Easy modes. Easy should be easy, so that novices can win it with small amounts of practice. Have different levels of similar modes (Easy, Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Master) with different speed curves and timing. 20G shouldn't even be introduced until Advanced, maybe Intermediate's ending.

- Different scoring methods. Master is TGM3-style. Intermediate/Advanced can be level and time. Easy/Novice should be TGM3-easy style.

- No infinite spin bullshit. Give linient lock delay, but not infinite spin or limited moves/rotations (would feel arbitrary)

- 6-memory random generator + hold.

- ARS and SRS rotation systems with the above restrictions. No T-spin triple bullshit, either.


The point would be giving people several different options that would allow them to pick something comfortable and move up as they wanted, without being overly challenging.

As it is, TTC games are stuck on "Too Fucking Simple". "Level" is a fancy way of saying "time wasted playing this".

[PikaTheXIII]

they hate us!! they want us pro players to die!!! Dx

[K]

Who the fuck voted no?

[caffeine]

We're a small group, and we're extremely fickle. [...] There's no one true hardcore tetris in all this. Even making everything customisable won't satisfying everyone because different choices will make quite objectively unfair versus matches and leaderboard comparisons. We're a hard market to please (see Tetris Zone) and we're small enough that when you do hit it the reward is underwhelming. [...] I'm saying they have made poor games and excellent business decisions. I don't see how this is news to anyone as Tetris has been quite lucrative. Are you guys honestly saying sales would increase noticeably if the hardcore were happy? Catering to the hardcore like Arika does is simply not something that is greatly profitable.

To repeat my points, TTC can make a more solid and enjoyable product for everyone by making the game fairer and deeper. They can do this by putting their Q&A through the rigorous standards of hardcore players. Strengthening the games this way will not make them less appealing to casual players, but more appealing in the long run because they have more depth and are more stable (fairer). How does TTC strengthen the game this way? I labeled many examples in my first topic, as did other posters (note that I, for one, didn't even mention TGM-specific mechanics). By strengthening the game this way, in the long run Tetris customers will perceive the brand as higher quality. At least in my business, reputation is everything when it comes to sales.

[Rosti LFC]

What harm does it do them to make a game which is a hybrid of Tetris DS and also TGM?

It's pretty obvious that by increasing the potential speed they could make multiplayer more interesting and develop more of a hard-core fanbase while making no difference to casuals. Adjustable DAS settings would pretty much kill most of the gripes of the hardcore fans while making no difference whatsoever to casual users who can just use a slower default setting if they want to. A proper matchmaking system which works based on rating would also vastly help.

I personally don't think the online of Tetris DS was that bad. If things were kept as they are it wouldn't be the end of the world for me. What I think was the main let-down was the single player, and this is the main area I think TTC can improve upon. It wouldn't take much either.
Generally games with good single player modes are seen as such because they have a broad range of difficulty settings. Yet Tetris games of late haven't had this. Maybe we've moved on since the days of the Game Boy and NES when games were harder and less appealing in general to casual players, but the current games are just unnecessarily easy.
Look at something like the Neave clone of Tetris. Extremely popular because it's a browser-based version which is reasonably straightforward to play (being one of the first Google results helps too). It's not particularly refined graphically or in terms of the gameplay, but it's also not easy. It's difficult because it has shit DAS and is pretty similar to the Game Boy versions of Tetris, but people still play it. Difficulty doesn't directly put people off a game.

What I think the single-player modes need is variation in difficulty. Most games have difficulty settings, so the player can adjust the difficulty of the game to suit their ability. They can practice on the easier modes so that they can play the harder modes. Yet with Tetris DS, once you get used to infinite-spin there's no real difficulty curve. The increase in speed stops giving an increase in difficulty.
Have basic modes like Tetris DS marathon that the less able players will take a few hours to get good enough to beat, but there's no reason why they can't have a Hard/Death/Ultra/etc mode which challenges the more able players. Or even better, a range of Marathon modes of increasing difficulty.
Sure, it'd probably be SRS and therefore I'd bitch a bit about it, but what is really stopping them from putting Ti Master and Shirase into their next game, on top of all the modes they're going to put in anyway?

[Edo]

The Tetris Company is NOT making sound business decisions.
I very strongly disagree with colour_thief on this issue. Tetris Worlds was released to universally bad reviews, some going as far as saying it was "broken". Do you not think that sales suffered as a result? TTC did nothing to fix its guideline, Tetris Evolution was released to mediocre reviews at best. Did sales suffer, yet again?
Sure, you might mention Tetris DS; but it's a sad state of affairs when it's not the underlying game, but the fluff that's wrapped around it - Mario, Link, Samus - that's selling. There's only so many ways you can wrap the same inferior product before gamers realise that it's just the same boring old Tetris that they've seen literally hundreds of times before and go and spend their money elsewhere.

The Tetris Company could make MORE MONEY by altering its Guideline.
Tetris will always make money, to some extent. Thousands of gamers realise that the game has flaws but they still buy it because they already like Tetris, and want a version to play on their latest console/mobile/whatever. But for gamers that don't already play Tetris, and aren't sure whether or not they'll like it, what reason do they have to invest in a game that is over two decades old, and everyone is now saying has significant flaws? There's a huge market that is as of yet untapped simply because TTC either refuse to (or simply does not know how to) make Tetris good enough to appeal to non-Tetris fans.

[tr3]

hardcore tetris players aren't enough to "claim rights" about "how tetris should be", it's sad but true

[Ray Ayanami]

Thousands of gamers realise that the game has flaws but they still buy it because they already like Tetris, and want a version to play on their latest console/mobile/whatever.
I disagree. I made a topic asking what everyone's favorite version of Tetris was on a major message board that starts with "G" and ends with "FAQs", and most responded with the NES or Game Boy versions. What major incentive could they possibly have to buy what they think will be the exact same game again on a new system?

[jujube]

Sure, you might mention Tetris DS; but it's a sad state of affairs when it's not the underlying game, but the fluff that's wrapped around it - Mario, Link, Samus - that's selling. There's only so many ways you can wrap the same inferior product before gamers realise that it's just the same boring old Tetris that they've seen literally hundreds of times before and go and spend their money elsewhere.
i agree with what you're saying in terms of single player, but the wifi capabilities made the game a smart buy for tetris fans. but now wifi has been done, and i wouldn't see myself buying a TDS2 unless the guideline is revamped.

[Xkeeper]

i agree with what you're saying in terms of single player, but the wifi capabilities made the game a smart buy for tetris fans.
Actually, fairly early on, any skilled player just ran into cheaters repeatedly.

So, eh.

[herc]

regarding tetris DS: i personally love the puzzle modes - touch mode and the classic puzzle mode. if those puzzle modes were not in the game, i think it would not be ok to sell it at as a full price game. tetris alone , even with multiplayer, is simply not enough to sell it at full price. it then would be more comparable to a game and price range like cubello for wii (wich is - by the way - a great game, though lacking more levels and overall variety. but the core game is fantastic)

[Rosti LFC]

i agree with what you're saying in terms of single player, but the wifi capabilities made the game a smart buy for tetris fans.
Actually, fairly early on, any skilled player just ran into cheaters repeatedly.

So, eh.

Maybe it's a timezone thing, but I never had any problems with cheaters. I'd run into them, but it'd be on a very infrequent basis.

[colour_thief]

What harm does it do them to make a game which is a hybrid of Tetris DS and also TGM?

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that that will do them harm. I'm saying there's no financial incentive to be better than mediocre.

[Edo]

Thousands of gamers realise that the game has flaws but they still buy it because they already like Tetris, and want a version to play on their latest console/mobile/whatever.
I disagree. I made a topic asking what everyone's favorite version of Tetris was on a major message board that starts with "G" and ends with "FAQs", and most responded with the NES or Game Boy versions. What major incentive could they possibly have to buy what they think will be the exact same game again on a new system?
Say for example that a gamer regards the NES version as the archetypal Tetris. It's possible that:

a) They're such a big fan of Tetris that they still want a version - any version - to play on their mobile.

b) Their NES is all packed away in the attic, and their X360 has taken pride of place next to their massive telly. They get a hankering for some Tetris, a game they've not played in years, and they buy Tetris Splash, because after all it's only a few dollars.

c) (Which is what I think you're suggesting), they feel that modern Tetris games are all the same, it's not possible to improve upon the "definitive" NES version, and they flat out refuse to buy any modern Tetris product.

But the point I was making is that most of the people that pay good money for Tetris are already fans. TTC is not working hard enough to entice gamers that have never played tetris before; they just keep on pushing out mediocre games to mediocre reviews.

[m:)]

TTC has it easy because as we all know tetris is more addictive then crack.


they got us hooked.

[Ray Ayanami]

I'd also like to note that a good fraction of comments on the "Japan Tetris Finals" and jin8 videos are not "wow this guy is awesome, I wanna play this game" but rather "I don't know anything about their lives outside of Tetris, but I'm gonna automatically deduce from their skill that they have no lives."

[jujube]

I'd also like to note that a good fraction of comments on the "Japan Tetris Finals" and jin8 videos are not "wow this guy is awesome, I wanna play this game" but rather "I don't know anything about their lives outside of Tetris, but I'm gonna automatically deduce from their skill that they have no lives."
and making comments like that is their hobby, which is really sad but kind of funny.

[rednefed]

I'd also like to note that a good fraction of comments on the "Japan Tetris Finals" and jin8 videos are not "wow this guy is awesome, I wanna play this game" but rather "I don't know anything about their lives outside of Tetris, but I'm gonna automatically deduce from their skill that they have no lives."
I wouldn't put much stock in youtube comments. When an "average" comment scores negative five or higher, your population mean average of intelligence or whatever is going to be on the left end of the curve, too. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[Zircean]

TTC has it easy because as we all know tetris is more addictive then crack.

QFT.

The most "hardcore" thing they've ever put in a (non-Ti) Tetris game was Master mode of Tetris Zone. However, it's still piss easy, considering Shirase 0 starts off faster than level 20.

Also of note is the fact that a good number of us bought Tetris Party even though it was already clear at launch it was the same guideline stupidity of the past couple games, but covered up with different gimmicks. TTC really does have it over us no matter how much we hate them... O.o

[Edo]

TTC has it easy because as we all know tetris is more addictive then crack.
Actually, a significant proportion of existing fans find "Tetris" - as defined by the current Guideline - to be boring and unenjoyable. And I'm not even talking about the hardcore here; I'm talking about casual gamers, like housewives who prefer the old GB Tetris or Tetris Classic.


a good number of us bought Tetris Party even though it was already clear at launch it was the same guideline stupidity[emphasis added]
most of the people that pay good money for Tetris are already fans. TTC is not working hard enough to entice gamers that have never played tetris before
TTC is also not working hard enough to satisfy a lot of its existing audience, as illustrated above. I honestly cannot believe that they're maximising their profit by behaving this way.

[jujube]

The most "hardcore" thing they've ever put in a (non-Ti) Tetris game was Master mode of Tetris Zone. However, it's still piss easy, considering Shirase 0 starts off faster than level 20.
TZ Master level 20 is much faster than Shirase 0, aside from the DAS. can anybody here manually lock in TZ master level 20? i stop at around level 17. in Doom/Quake/Expert Ti with Ti-World i can manually lock all the way to 1000 without many double-locks (although i've only gotten that far when starting at 500).

edit: i just played TZ master again, manually locking the whole way, and didn't have double-locks until level 20.

[m:)]

TTC has it easy because as we all know tetris is more addictive then crack.
Actually, a significant proportion of existing fans find "Tetris" - as defined by the current Guideline - to be boring and unenjoyable. And I'm not even talking about the hardcore here; I'm talking about casual gamers, like housewives who prefer the old GB Tetris or Tetris Classic.



i agree myself to a certain extent. i am would prefer not to play the TTC guideline games, they do however still have me strung along like a helpless junkie still buying their games when they come along.

[EnFuego]

Also of note is the fact that a good number of us bought Tetris Party even though it was already clear at launch it was the same guideline stupidity of the past couple games, but covered up with different gimmicks. TTC really does have it over us no matter how much we hate them... O.o

I bought tetris party because of the free wii points(tournaments). It was stupid to NOT buy it if you owned a wii and were decent enough to place high enough in the tournaments. They give you wii points for something you would be doing otherwise. But to avoid getting off-track, tetris party was targetted at tetris fans who were not hardcore. The non-hardcore fans need gimmicks to stay interested.

So if TTC releases their own version of TGM, isn't everyone going to complain about something else?

[Corrosive]

some lady 'Adrian Lopez' posted this comment on the TTC vs. Blockles article from Gamasutra:

Adrian Lopez

10 Apr 2009 at 5:33 pm PST

"The vast majority of the claimed trade dress elements are actually gameplay mechanics, and therefore functional rather than decorative. Is it not the case that functional elements cannot be granted trademark protection? If so, most of the claimed elements are unworthy of the trade dress protection being sought. The Tetris Company is in fact trying to claim exclusive rights to the mechanics of Tetris, which is not much different than someone trying to claim exclusive rights to the mechanics of Chess."

dunno what shes saying but thought it was interesting

[Needle]

some lady 'Adrian Lopez' posted this comment on the TTC vs. Blockles article from Gamasutra:

Adrian Lopez

10 Apr 2009 at 5:33 pm PST

"The vast majority of the claimed trade dress elements are actually gameplay mechanics, and therefore functional rather than decorative. Is it not the case that functional elements cannot be granted trademark protection? If so, most of the claimed elements are unworthy of the trade dress protection being sought. The Tetris Company is in fact trying to claim exclusive rights to the mechanics of Tetris, which is not much different than someone trying to claim exclusive rights to the mechanics of Chess."

dunno what shes saying but thought it was interesting

Same thing's been said to death. TTC decides not to care anyways, probably in hopes that intimidation alone will deter people.

[Zaphod77]

honestly i really think TTC isn't trying to be evil here with the blockles suit..

The author of blockles clearly was trying to take the Korean Tetris and change it "just enough to not be sued" and TTC is trying to nail them on it, and I don't blame them. And that's what they will be trying to convince the judge, regardeless of their actual legal arguments.

But only patents can do what they really want to do.

I still think (and hope) they will fail,

[Rosti LFC]

But Korean Tetris can only be played by people in Korea. If it was a worldwide release that was being ripped off, I think they would be perfectly entitled to it, but it isn't.

Fact is that most of the games TTC files lawsuits against are merely filling gaps in the market which TTC can't fill themselves.

[muf]

Fact is that most of the games TTC files lawsuits against are merely filling gaps in the market which TTC refuses to fill themselves.
Fixed.

[Xkeeper]

TTC has it easy because as we all know tetris is more addictive then crack.
Actually, a significant proportion of existing fans find "Tetris" - as defined by the current Guideline - to be boring and unenjoyable. And I'm not even talking about the hardcore here; I'm talking about casual gamers, like housewives who prefer the old GB Tetris or Tetris Classic.
There's a reason Tetris Worlds (GBA) was released to reviews saying "It's the game that breaks tetris."

And, wait, Tetris Party gives out free Wii points? Woah.

[m:)]

And, wait, Tetris Party gives out free Wii points? Woah.


you actually can get the games cost x 4. it's hard to pass that up.

[TWF]

TTC has it easy because as we all know tetris is more addictive then crack.
Actually, a significant proportion of existing fans find "Tetris" - as defined by the current Guideline - to be boring and unenjoyable. And I'm not even talking about the hardcore here; I'm talking about casual gamers, like housewives who prefer the old GB Tetris or Tetris Classic.
There's a reason Tetris Worlds (GBA) was released to reviews saying "It's the game that breaks tetris."

Yeah, I know a lot of people who say "fuck the new stuff. Oldskool to the max". Usually this bothers me, but you have a point. The classic nintendo games did actually have challenge, even if it came from shitty controls. The new ones made the mistake of removing the challenge.

[Zaphod77]

I believe it's possible to make SRS playable under step reset now.

1) if the center of the bounding box OR the lowest block lowers, perform a step reset. This catches the case edo mentioned.
2) if the bounding boxes center or the lowest block rises during lock delay, perform a climb reset that stores the state of the bounding box and the lowest block and locks out further climb and step resets until one or the other drops lower than it was before. Optionally use a higher delay for the climb reset.

and, while we're at it

3) fix the incredibly unintuitive situation where you have to rotate the s or z the wrong way to be able to rotate it at all. Add an extra kick to the end rotation tables for those pieces from the initial state to allow the desired rotation to take place.

[Rosti LFC]

I think rather than trying to fix step reset so it works with SRS, you should try and fix SRS so it works with step reset. The wallkick system should just be altered to make it kick up less. Even ignoring the broken step reset, it's still awkward to play with in 20G conditions.

[Zaphod77]

I'm all for replacing SRS, but it's clearly Not An Option.

This is the only way i can think of to retain the intent of the rotation system and remove infinity and have it still playable.

If these reset rules were added to TAP, they would change nothing at all. Therefore this isn't really changing step reset, but simply adding cases to handle the strangeness that is SRS.

[Ray Ayanami]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/gs68/tgm/heboris_g3_srs.png
http://freefile.kristopherw.us/uploads/ ... play33.sav (http://freefile.kristopherw.us/uploads/rayayanami/replay33.sav)

SRS fucking sucks.

[lgb]

I do like the rational behind infinite spin, especially combined with some sort of time-keeping feature.

[Ray Ayanami]

[RotS: DS-WORLD]
"Do not top out!"
Okay. *infinite spin*
"PUT THE BLOCK!"
nyoro~n