View Full Version : Knockout Tetris Garbage
I have a question:
If I make a Tetris my opponent gets 4 lines of garbage leaving one hole in every row.
In which column do the holes come? In my opinion the holes are not randomized, as they are placed a long time in the same column, but i can't find a rule for it. Sometimes the column changes.
I've read your strategy guide and your Tetris DS-guide but I can't find an answer to this question.
I'm playing Tetris DS.
Thanks in advance
Cupid
caffeine
03-27-2006, 08:51 AM
i haven't found out exactly how the garbage randomizer works, yet. sometimes it comes all in a row-- sometimes it doesn't. i've noticed it comes more random as i put my handicap up in friends games, but as far as standard wifi play, i'm as stumped as you are.
Thanks!
OK... I just thought i did not see it.
Cupid
When all the garbage holes are lined up in Tetris DS WIFi it's almost as if you help your opponent as oposed to random holes.
Here is my guess of how it works.
If you put your "I" piece in the same spot over and over the holes are lined up. If you switch it up it leaves random holes. Thats just a theory but I really want to know the truth
I am trying to figure out garbage placement myself.
I have been playing Tetris DS Classic Vs. getting back to back tetrii in the furthest right column every time, and these are my results.
X markes the hole in the garbage.
The following are true back to back tetrii, I actually dropped the I piece one right after another using Tetris DS's hold function. and since I am only playing the level 1 computer I usually get both tetrii in before he drops a piece to seperate the garbage:
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOOOXOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
------------------
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
------------------
OOOOOOOXOO
OOOOOOOXOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
The following is the same as above, except the tetrii are performed in the left column instead:
OOOOOOXOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
------------------
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOXOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
------------------
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOXOOOO
Then I set it up so I could get one tetris in the left column and the back to back one in the right column, for some reason in Tetris DS this sends 10 lines of garbage instead of 9... :
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
Lastly I did my back to back and my stack was so high I had change left over for another tetris, four pieces later I sent another tetris (all in the right-most column) and this is what it looks like:
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
So... I have no idea what to make of this, I was hoping maybe someone here could. My belief is that where the hole forms is dependent on where the last piece (or maybe even last few pieces) was/were placed on either (or maybe both) players screen(s). However, I don't have a camera so I have no way of recording my gameplay and collecting my data.
Then I set it up so I could get one tetris in the left column and the back to back one in the right column, for some reason in Tetris DS this sends 10 lines of garbage instead of 9... :
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
I'm sorry, I just replicated the left-right tetris two more times and both times they gave 9 lines of garbage, I don't know how I counted ten last time.
I took a break and left my DS on... and now I get this keep in mind I almost always complete my tetrii but putting an I peice on the right-most side:
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
==========
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
==========
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
==========
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
==========
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
==========
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OXOOOOOOOO
==========
XOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOOOOOX
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
==========
XOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
I just managed 4 back to back tetrii... it looks like this:
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOXOOO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOOOOOXO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
For the most part everything now is coming out straight... as odd as it may sound, I think that it might have something to do with what time it is or how long the system has been on. Damn it I just wish there were a simple solution to this.
colour_thief
04-12-2006, 07:40 AM
You should read the front page... I think your theory is just a chance association. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif
Anyways I think there is a simple explanation. Look at this tally:
#Repeats: 103
#Changes: 49
It's still a fairly small sample, but it seems plausible to me that 2/3 of the time the game keeps the same column for its garbage hole, and 1/3 of the time it changes to a new spot.
Bob, you seem quite detail oriented. Would you be willing to transcribe, say, 1500 pieces for me? As in, start a round of Endless and note which pieces you get as you go along. I've made a program that can process the information if you write it in a standard manner in a TXT file. I've used it to successfully analyze the piece randomizer in TGM games. TDS also seems to not be purely random (unlike the early Tetris games that would give 6 Z pieces in a row). It might be neat to figure out what it does.
If you're up to the task let me know and I'll tell you the proper format.
It's still a fairly small sample, but it seems plausible to me that 2/3 of the time the game keeps the same column for its garbage hole, and 1/3 of the time it changes to a new spot.I spent quite a while trying to figure out how the garbage works, and I came to the same conclusion. In fact, I think those are the exact fractions I'd conjectured. I did about 150 lines worth of testing with only tetrises, and about 150 lines worth with mixed doubles and triples; there wasn't really any difference.
Additionally, I've heard that adjusting the handicap for friends matches can make garbage "more random". That's easily explained if we assume the garbage works like this; a higher handicap means a higher chance that the hole location will change when you get a new garbage line.
colour_thief
04-12-2006, 06:02 PM
Well then, if all 450 lines of garbage are pointing at the same ratio, it sounds like it's case closed.
Something to consider: There are 2 different parsimonious models for this.
1. 2/3 Same, 1/3 Other
2. 2/3 Same, 1/3 Random -> 7/10 Same, 3/10 Other
I skipped some algebra there, but anyone comfortable with probability can easily figure it out. The distinction between 'other' and 'random' is that other is distinctly a non-repeat while random chooses a new spot... which may possibly be a repeat 1/10 of the time.
This detail changes the odds in favour of a repeat by about 3.33%, from 66.66% to 70.00%. So if you guys consistently notice slightly more than 2/3 of lines being repeats, this might explain it.
hmmm, is that ultimate question that require so much brainstorming is really useful ? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif
So, how many lines would it take to distinguish an accurate difference between 1:3 and 3:10 odds of “other”?
And also, that very first hole in garbage, is that considered a repeat, an other, or neither? I'm going with neither.
colour_thief
04-13-2006, 12:19 AM
It's ignored... It's necessary but worthless.
And short of disassembling the game's code you'll never truly know what's going on. The more lines you analyze the better your guess will be though.
Current ratio 446:172 same:other
Which is 446/668 which is 66.7%, not sure if I want to go on anymore.
caffeine
04-13-2006, 04:37 AM
so does this mean 2/3 of the time it lines up and 1/3 it switches columns?
Current ratio 446:172 same:other
Which is 446/668 which is 66.7%, not sure if I want to go on anymore.
MY MISTAKE!
446:172 same:other equates to 446/618 (72.17%) chance for the hole to be in the same spot, 27.83% chance that it will shift. I will add to these numbers later.
Current ratio 446:172 same:other
722:283 puts my ratio just over 1000... 722/(722+283) = 71.84%
I think this is as close as we can get without actually opening our tetris DS carts. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif
If anyone else wants to continue my work go ahead.
Thanks, thats hard work you have done! maybe it's 11/16 or 176/256 if they use random bytes...
Stan64
04-23-2006, 06:49 AM
"Apparently the higher your Wifi Ranking score is, the garbage lines sent TO you may be more randomized."
Nick15
04-23-2006, 12:28 PM
"Apparently the higher your Wifi Ranking score is, the garbage lines sent TO you may be more randomized."
Yeah well, don't take my word for it, but it's merely an observation I have. When I started playing Tetris DS on wifi, the garbage columns were in a pretty orderly fashion. Then as I rose in the ranks, the garbage columns became more randomized. There have been quite a few me-7000 versus them-7000 matches where most of my garbage blocks in a given chunk of time were almost completely randomized with no empty columns.
At least, that's what I've observed.
Stan64
04-23-2006, 06:22 PM
I don't know though. I just quoted something I heard.
Nick15
04-23-2006, 10:40 PM
I don't know though. I just quoted something I heard.
Yeah, I wrote that in my Tetris DS FAQ. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif
Stan64
04-24-2006, 01:15 AM
Oh, my friend pasted it as aquote in a irc channel. =D
Sully
05-15-2006, 10:06 AM
Random observation about garbage- you ALWAYS get random garbage in Mission Marathon when you run out of time, so it's obviously coded in there somewhere. I wonder if there's any way that this complete randomness could be also worked into multiplayer?
tepples
05-16-2006, 12:45 AM
At least one fangame (http://www.pineight.com/nes/default.htm) has completely random garbage.
Shirase
05-18-2006, 09:45 AM
Something I thought of just now. Maybe this has been repeated and if it has then I'm sorry.
Look at it this way. When you compete a tetris, you're sending the 4 lines over to your opponent. Since you used an I block, the holes are going to be in the same place for those 4 lines.
If you do bTb tetrises in the same spot (for example, the left edge), then you have 8 lines with the holes lined up perfectly.
So maybe a way to get around that would be to do Tetrises in different places?
Eh, hopefully that made sense. I'm a little out of it right now.
tepples
05-18-2006, 10:52 AM
Except in DuelTris (for Apple IIGS), the position of holes in garbage is independent of the position of the tetromino that created the garbage. When you send a triple using L or J, it doesn't leave a hole 2 blocks wide, does it?
Needle
05-18-2006, 01:08 PM
The garbage behavior in TGM does that, actually. So clearing with the I will send clean lines, while with other pieces the garbage becomes messier. Erasing multiple doubles/triples with Z/S/L/J will send some pretty hard-to-clear garbage into the other player's field.
jujube
08-13-2008, 03:24 AM
aww man i wish i'd read this thread again before doing what i just did http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif well, at least my testing was done a little differently...
i played against the level 5 cpu in TDS to see what kind of garbage i would get (specifically how often the holes would change) if the cpu started the game with a tetris. of course it's possible there are different algorithms handling randomness of garbage received vs garbage sent when playing the computer, but i couldn't find any evidence of this.
i simply waited to observe the garbage i received if the first garbage attack came from a tetris, otherwise i restarted. i only recorded the number of times the hole changed out of a possible 3 (with 4 lines sent for a tetris, there are 3 chances for the hole to change), because this was my only interest. after 100 successful attempts this is what i found:
no hole change x 34
1 hole change x 41
2 hole changes x 24
3 hole changes x 1
total hole changes: 92/300 = 30.7%
it's generally assumed at this point that in TDS the garbage hole changes 30% of time, which gives these odds when there are 3 chances for the hole to change (assuming i did my math correctly):
no hole change: 34.3%
1 hole change: 44.1%
2 hole changes: 18.9%
3 hole changes: 2.7%
so nothing really interesting. if there'd never been 3 hole changes with 4 lines received during my testing it would've left open the possibility that it's impossible under the circumstances i tested in, but nope. anyway, here's something that is kind of interesting:
Lastly I did my back to back and my stack was so high I had change left over for another tetris, four pieces later I sent another tetris (all in the right-most column) and this is what it looks like:
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOOXOOOO
OOOOOOOOOX
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
OOOXOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOOOXOOOOO
OOXOOOOOOO
Bob witnessed the hole changing 4 times consecutively. if it's supposed to change 30% of the time, there's a 0.8% chance that will happen (correct me if i'm wrong). it's possible some of us here have never seen it. well, if you haven't played a ton.
vBulletin® v3.8.3, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.