About new features and the Tetris from the Top Interview

Thread in 'Discussion' started by aioobe, 26 Jun 2008.

  1. Henk Rogers mentions (in http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=11267) visions of compatibility between different tetrises, and a "tetris olympics" in which all players should be able to comfortable compete against each other.

    He also mentions how they continuously how they add small features here and there, such as awarding t-spins with extra points etc. When faced with questions like "doesn't that ruin the original idea?", or "many people dislikes that feature" he reasons like "well, it's optional, those who doesn't like it doesn't have to use it".

    Well if there are 10 different ways of being "good" at tetris, there will never be a fair tetris olympics.

    I say, stick with traditional tetris, add only features thats fair and doesn't split tetris players into a group that's knows how to take advantage of the feature and those who thinks it's a stupid feature not worth practicing.

    Whats your take on this?
  2. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    I too like to draw analogies from Tetris to tennis. When lawn tennis was being developed in the second half of the 19th century, there were arguments between lawn tennis fans and fans of the older "real tennis". I think Tetris is in a similar transition.

    But then there are the differences between hard, clay, and grass courts. Might those correspond to differences in the various delays?
  3. That feels wrong. 100m runners don't runs with marathonian, nor with 1500m runners.
  4. I see your point, and I must say I agree to some extent.
    Some additions though really change the game fundamentally from what it once was, like the hold-feature. Many people dislike it since it takes away big part of the challenge when building, and some players like it because it's just "easier" to play with. Would such a feature be in a tetris olympics?

    I guess I'm just a bit too conservative and that I need to get used to the newer tetrises (played mostly good old "pure" tetrises).
  5. PetitPrince: Well, thats a valid point as well of course.
  6. For the analogy to hold, what Henk is suggesting is similar to playing Tennis with clay on half the court and grass on the other. That would not be a fair sport. Surely one of clay or grass would give a substancial advantage, and you'd be stupid not to choose it. Similarly, he may call t-spins optional, but if you don't use them you're handicapping yourself.
  7. (offtopic: quoting from the post review is a neat feature)

    Unless you reduce the surface of one of the half course. But then asymmetrical gaming is a hell to balance, and I don't think Tetris is a good candidate to asymmetrical gaming.
  8. To label things like T-spins as "optional" is complete bullshit.

    I mean, technically, yeah, you don't have to use them. But in the same sense clearing lines is also "optional". You don't have to, but unless you enjoy being rubbish, you're forced into it. There is absolutely no way on Tetris DS any player can maintain a high rating without t-spins. If you want to be up there with the best players, they are in no way optional. You're at a massive disadvantage without them.
  9. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

  10. But is awarding extra points for t-spins optional in Tetris DS? (Of course you should never avoid doing a t-spin if the situation calls for it.)
  11. Again, no. The scores you get for all Tetrises on Marathon and Line Clear are only half of the scores possible if you T-spin effectively.
  12. Zaphod77

    Zaphod77 Resident Misinformer

    It's more like the t-spinner is the one only needing to lift the weight off the ground and the non t-spinner needing to lift the weight above the head. You need to be MUCH more skilled to lift over your head what the other person can merely lift form the ground, and if the person lifting from the ground is good enough, there's no way ANYONE can lift that amount above their head.
  13. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    i'll agree the player in the video won't beat Samaf, and maybe a handful of other players, but that's about it [​IMG]
    sometimes you can be so good defensively it doesn't matter what the other player throws at you. and if you hang around long enough you'll have your chance to put the pressure on.
  14. I really don't see how you can justify that you don't need T-Spins to be an elite Tetris DS player, because you just do. Without them you need pretty insane speed, because t-spins will make up for a pretty big gap in ability otherwise. Using t-spins is about as optional as using both buttons to rotate (to use a slightly closer analogy than I did earlier). You can try and play without learning them, but you just can't enter the same level of ability that the top players occupy. I really doubt there's any player who could get a rating above 8000, or even 7750 and maintain it without using t-spins pretty heavily. They are the difference between a very good player and a top player.
  15. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    well i had this thread in mind when i said that:

    and it's funny because the player mask speaks of uses no T-spins and only single rotation. mask, who's surpassed 8000 himself, says he doesn't compare to the player, and quotes SAMAF as saying "the player who wins the digging race becomes a winner of games."

    i wasn't trying to say that T-spins don't help, and if #0MASASAITOH learned 2 rotations and T-spins his rating would probably improve further. the point i was trying to make was that the game isn't totally dominated by T-spins, that speed and clearing a lot of garbage with a few pieces without leaving much on top of the garbage can't be thought of as secondary in importance.

    edit: i mean, for Christ's sake, KAN made GM without frickin hold [​IMG]
  16. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    I wonder how well these players who depend on their drilling skills would do against some of the more difficult garbage settings (Level 4, Home Run Derby) in Lockjaw.

    DIGITAL Unregistered

    Samaf made too bold a statement there. [​IMG] Though winning a drilling game means you'll never lose, it doesn't mean you'll ever top the other player out either. Unless the other player tops himself out, you can drill forever and not send enough garbage to beat him. A revised statement might include efficient offense WHILE drilling.

    Let's try to quantify this shall we? (I'm going to use arbitrary values)

    I'm going to make up the worth of various skills for example purposes.

    T-Spins = 4 skill points
    Speed/Finesse = 6 skill points
    Nonoverstacking/Drilling = 5 points
    Efficiency/Higher line clear = 4
    Offensive Timing = 3
    Defensive Timing = 2

    Total max skill points of a player who masters all these = 24
    Total max skill points of a player who masters all of these except for T-Spins = 20

    In your view, some skills are worth more than others and T-Spins make up just one portion of the many skills. So even if you don't T-Spin, you can still maintain a fairly high level of play.

    In Rosti's view, if you want to be at the top, you cannot spare any skill points.

    If I understand you guys correctly, you and Rosti aren't disagreeing, but are having totally different arguments. [​IMG]
  18. Yeah Digital has it.
    If you are aspiring to be the best, then you need to be able to T-spin. You will aspire to be the best, because it seems weird to aim for something lower than that (in the long term at least), therefore you need to be able to T-spin, making it non-optional.

    Similarly, with LJ 40 Lines, sooner or later you have to switch to SRS. The rotation system between SRS and ARS is not optional, because SRS is just faster in the long term. You don't HAVE to use it, but you'll eventually be faster if you do, and if you use ARS you're just pointlessly giving yourself a handicap versus the SRS players.

    Even if you ignore other people and just try and be the best player you can, you still have to learn T-spins because they'll raise your ability level massively.
  19. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    i can't argue with that. i think Samaf and mask were trying to remind others of the importance of being well-rounded players. there's no doubt that if you can T-spin often without making a big mess of things you'll be a very strong player.
  20. Muf


    Excuse my ignorance, but is this because of the initial rotations (less rotation needed per placement), or the wallkicks (more placements possible), or both? I'm kind of curious.

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