Tetris The Grand Master fan-game but not clone

Thread in 'Discussion' started by Oshisaure, 18 May 2016.

  1. So I've got through some personal annoying shit recently (that you probably don't care about cause that's not what you came here for) and right now I just want to focus on making my own game. I've been thinking of making something really inspired by TGM and make it feel like a game from the series, yet making it my own. I just wanna make sure Arika wouldn't have problems with that, cause I mean true clones like NullpoMino or Heboris cancelled TGM4/TAP for PS2. I'd really hate myself to death if I would cause TGM4 to be re-canceled.
  2. This is not what happened, at least with tgm2 for ps2 (and I'm willing to guess tgm4) and has been verified by a tweet from mihara to @BBQTurkeyzZ
    "We simply did not have the license"
  3. Oh really? I thought it was because of the clones, thanks to correct me there. I guess I should keep working on it then ^^
  4. Clones causing the cancellation of TAP on PS2 is a very common misconception. I thought it myself until someone said something in IRC about it and I asked Mihara.

    However, clones DID cause the cancellation of TGM4 (or was at least one of the reasons). Mihara has a blog and the announcement of its cancellation is detailed on a post here.
    I'd say if you do keep working on it, be very careful.
  5. I always thought fangames were missed opportunities.

    Not that I'll take the piss of games like Nullpomino and all, 'cause I love 'em, but they're obviously made to replicate the existing official games.
    I don't even know how it gets away by having so many authentic rules and game modes but it does, I guess that's a good thing for us =p

    But I still wish for someone with a lot of creativity, or maybe a team of people, could make an actual new thing, with new game modes, a good scoring system, leaderboards...

    Hell, if there's someone involved in this maybe I can help in some way, although I would probably not write a single line of code (I don't suck that much at programming, but I always thought it would take a crap ton of time and skill to make even a basic Tetris game that works better than the GB version haha), I could maybe give some ideas.

    But don't give up, this might be very worth doing this. :V
    Oshisaure likes this.
  6. That's what I want to do. I thought of making stuff like a game mode in which pieces lock in the rhythm of the BGM, and even online multiplayer for doubles, if I manage to do that. If you wanna help, I'll need some testers though cause I'm decent at Tetris but I'm not anywhere close to Grand Master.

    Thank you for the support, it's really motivating to see that people are looking forward to it! :D
  7. Word on the street is that TAP will soon be on Fightcade. Emulation will probably suck but online doubles play is already in the works!
  8. You already can online Doubles. I do it with people on the Tetris Discord a fair bit.
  9. How bad is the lag? Fightcade does the GGPO 2 frames thing.
  10. Depends on server and who you're playing with. One guy I played with we had next to no lag but with another person it was abhorrent. Both were European (Belgium and Poland, respectively)
  11. I still think the whole "clones cancelled the game" is bullshit for TGM4 as well. Just because Mihara says it's what happened doesn't mean it's true - especially when most of the other plausible options (such as he just failed to negotiate a license, and/or a distributor, or general popularity of arcade games meant nobody was interested) aren't favourable to him or his company. Yes, Mihara is almost certainly the most informed person on the truth, but I feel it's a bit naive to take everything he says at face value when he's given past demonstrations of being a dick, seems to have a ridiculously strong hatred towards the Western community (which could be driven by issues due to TGM emulation and clones, but could be he's just a xenophobic bastard)

    In particular, I would like to point out that when people make fan-made clones of TGM, it is most likely not Mihara/ARIKA that file the cease and desist against you (except on YouTube, but that's different because it doesn't actually involve any legal process) - it's TTC, as they're the core license holder. When I've had "C&D or we'll sue the shit out of you" threats for anime-related stuff because fansub groups were breaching, say, Funimation's license in the EU, it was from Production IG or Kyoto Animation, not Funimation themselves. It's one of the core issues with a license-leasing business model for IP as to whether the licensor or licensee holds the responsibility for defending it against illegal infringement, current evidence would suggest that it's TTC's job (see TTC vs Xio Interactive for the mobile rip-off, not EA Mobile vs Xio Interactive)

    Chances are Mihara would love to sue the shit out of everyone releasing TGM clones, but it's up to TTC, not him, to actually go around and send all the legal notices. TGM clones are, typically, something that TTC seems to take a fairly light touch on (especially in contrast to how heavy they come down on everything else) and I could expect this is especially frustrating to Mihara, and also provides yet another reason for him to keep banging on about how much TGM clones are hurting the series and its profitability.

    Personally I'm pretty sure that the main reasons TGM4 didn't happen are:

    1) That TTC weren't happy to compromise on the guideline (and therefore the game wouldn't be a great TGM game anyway) and the license fee they were asking for was pretty substantial for the amount of revenue an arcade title would be likely to make
    2) Arcade games just aren't that big a market any more (even in Japan, afaik) and it's difficult to make a business case for what is fundamentally a niche series within a niche industry

    Fundamentally, if TGM4 was likely to make money then it would happen, because companies tend to like making money. If it's not likely to make money (and apparently TGM games historically don't) then it's not going to happen, and I don't really believe that fan clones are the big profitability killer in the wider context of the video game industry (and the arcade industry, and the puzzle game industry) as a whole. From hear-say at least, TGM2 was a loss-making game long before the likes of Heboris and TAP MAME emulation existed.

    tl;dr Mihara's bitching that TGM clones shut down TGM4 could be truth, but it could also be the typical bitching at piracy being the key reason for shit sales, rather than admitting to any possible issues around the product itself. It's absolutely in his interest in multiple ways to blame clones and emulation, especially when there's nobody else to really argue otherwise.
    Last edited: 18 May 2016
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  12. I can definitely say I wouldn't have spent as much money (if at all) on TGM if clones/emulation weren't a thing. Because I could play them via their known methods I ended up buying a TGM PCB, a TAP PCB and am now attending events that have TGM machines. Whereas if that wasn't the case I doubt I would have picked the series up in the first place and looked elsewhere.

    If anything though I'd definitely say the biggest issue with TGM4 not being released is due to licensing issues. Seeing as the game itself already seems to be near completion, they could just cash in and become the first Tetris game to hit Steam (barring Ubisoft's game using Steam to piggyback off of their own store) and have most of the clone/emulation players buy that.
    Last edited: 18 May 2016
  13. Archina: Does not matter neither Arika nor TTC get any of the money you spend for your PCBs. In my opinion they should simply stop complaining about Tetris clones other people create and just start to sell/make good games by them self. E.g. SNK starts selling and remaking the old Neo Geo games, e.g. through humble bundle or the Last Blade Release for PS4. Releasing a quite cheap emulated TAP version would be a win-win-win for TTC, Arika and the Tetris Community.
  14. Muf


    Pssst, can you write C++? :awe:
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  15. Except for issues surrounding PC licensing and the other legal crap that has to be agreed between TTC, Arika and potentially Ubisoft (who at least recently have the PC license that I'd assume is exclusive, I don't know if it expires soon). Most likely TTC place a fairly high value on the PC license (hence official PC games being incredibly thin on the ground recently), so Arika need to make decent amount of money to cover the cost of the license fee. Alternatively TTC could give a cheaper license, but presumably that's a precedent they don't want to set and either way it means less money for them. And there's the fact that TGM games are non-guideline incarnations of Tetris, and TTC seem to be incredibly touchy (and inconsistent) with that sort of thing. If TGM got released on Steam then we'd obviously see it as a win, Arika probably would, but I'm very sceptical that TTC would be on-board - and ultimately they're the people who have final say.

    Fundamentally it all boils down to the people who actually make the decisions preferring to make lots of money over getting good games out there. And they'd rather make no money and release zero games in the short term than compromise on any potential money in the future. Maybe it has happened and worked with other games run by other companies, but that doesn't necessarily mean it works here.
  16. Just mentioning that because of said emulation my interest in the game series has been exponentially increased compared to the little-to-none I had before finding out about it and that I'm more than willing to spend a fair share of cash to get said games legit.

    Though there is one thing that has been true for all games though. If you fail to keep up with what people demand, someone, somewhere will begin to make games similar to yours and fans will lose interest in your series and go elsewhere instead. A few popular examples being Banjo Kazooie (Yooka Laylee is in development), Megaman (Mighty No 9 is in development), 2D Castlevania (Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night is now in development) and 2D Sonic (Freedom Planet is available to purchase.) So it stands to reason that when fans of the TGM series don't get a new game for 11 years they're going to be making their own games to enjoy instead.
  17. Welp, I'm going with Lua for now cause I don't know anything about C++ except hello world (yeah i'm lazy to learn but i'll change that soon) and I got a couple years of experience in making stuff involving Lua. I'm assuming I'm talking to a C++ dev?
  18. Muf


    Yeah, a bunch of us (Kitaru, twf, nightmareci, DrPete) have been working on and off on a "spiritual successor" like what you and @m.kevin describe, and I'm looking for new blood to get the project going again after about a year long rut. The only real deal-breaker is not wanting to write C++, since that's what the game is written in. Once the engine is mature enough that things work properly, the actual game logic is in a script language, so at that point we could probably attract more than just C++ devs, but right now that isn't the case.
    Tomek likes this.
  19. Well, I'm gonna get working on learning C++ once I get Demon Mode complete on my side. I think I could rewrite it in C++, I mean that's just a 20G mode for now, more complex stuff is gonna come later. I'd be very interested to take part in this project to be honest.
  20. Zaphod77

    Zaphod77 Resident Misinformer

    As I recall Mihara only has a problem with TGM clones that bring nothing new to the table. He respected D-TET, because it had it's own systems and rotation, for example. But TTC didn't like it, and that's why the author pulled it.

    So if you don't want to bother Mihara...

    1) change the rotation system. try and innovate there.
    2) go away from the tgm level and grade system.

    Mihara took Sega Tetris, and Shimizu's tetris (which itself heavily borrowed from sega tetris), and made something much better (TGM1-3(4?)). You would need to do the same to TGM to get his respect.

    TTC, on the other hand,doesn't like ANY tetris game that's not paying them. If it's something that people have to go out of their way to find, they will tend to look the other way, but if it gets really big ey take notice and either buy the game out (blockstar, n0blox, etc.) or send a cease and desist.

    Apparently Arika DID file takedown notices of youtube videos back in the day. They may or may not have been leaned on by TTC. I vaguely recall that at one time pretty much said "TGM is your problem, you have to protect it".

    Lately TTC hasn't been doing anything against TG clones because of all the positive buzz, i think. they used to be a LOT more heavy handed. Bu this buzz appears to be fading again now, with NewTGM stuck again.

    Course I could be wrong...

    We clone TGM because we can't buy it. But Nihara (with some justification i'd say), considers wholesale cloning wrong and disrespectful.

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